From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #62 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 31 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 062 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: dog attack the_dojang: dog attack the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #61 the_dojang: Vicious animals the_dojang: dog attacks the_dojang: UC Open the_dojang: Self-Defense Against Hostile Animals the_dojang: Re:> Has the Super Bowl started yet??? the_dojang: advice needed the_dojang: Re:US Flag the_dojang: Flags Re: the_dojang: advice needed the_dojang: Majordomo FAQ the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:36:57 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: dog attack In a message dated 1/31/99 10:12:27 AM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << One of my HKD students, a long-term Special Forces trooper, told me that he was trained to give an attacking dog one forearm, ramming it as deeply as possible into the dog's mouth to jam the jaw and thereby minimize the bite, followed by slamming the other arm on the dog's neck and then executing a front roll. The idea is to break the dog's neck. The technique assumes that only one dog is attacking, that the soldier cannot fire a weapon (Special Forces guys tend, in war time, to be behind the enemy lines and do not want their presence known), and that some other weapon, a stick, for instance, isn't available. >> not exactly a "do the least harm possible" philosophy, eh? melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:03:45 EST Subject: the_dojang: dog attack In a message dated 99-01-31 11:12:13 EST, you write: << Personally, I haven't a clue as to whether this would work. Clearly, it requires considerable presence of mind for sucessful execution. Wearing heavey clothing, such as military BDU's, wouldn't hurt at all. >> I have learned this same technique for breaking an attacking dog's neck. But I have not ever used it, and don't know anyone who has actually done it. Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:30:24 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #61 In a message dated 1/31/99 11:11:56 AM, Ray asks: <> Well...we did watch the three hour Tweety vs Sylvester pregame last night and then the match up between the two of them. Tweety won (boo!) but the best was watching seasoned pro football commentators trying to do analysis on a WB cartoon without cracking up. ; ) karla ------------------------------ From: "The Hostetlers" Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:45:38 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Vicious animals I asked this question a year ago in reference to an abused dog we had in the house, and were trying to rehab, and I was given a whole lotta crap about beating animals. Oh, well... I've heard the forearm down the throat technique before, but it didn't include the other arm used to break the neck. I guess I thought you waited until the critter asphyxiated on your fist... What I gathered from when I asked the question, was that a middle block to the side of the dog's head as it lunged for you would give it something to think about, and not necessarily be fatal. Never had to use it on that dog, it turns out. It (the dog) should have been destroyed, BTW, because it's fine with it's owner and a small circle of acquaintences, but it still flips out over complete strangers. The one time I did actually defend against a dog, a roamer from the neighborhood was coming after anyone leaving a pet store that had a dog with them. I had a 5 gallon carboy of water for my aquarium, my wife had a bag of dogfood, and my then 5 y. o. son had our dog. Of course, the mutt made a beeline for my son. It never saw the front kick coming... I connected under the jaw, and knocked him head over tail. He was still yipping half a block away, and the store personnel had no problem with him after that (he did this on a regular basis up to then). The reason I ramble on this is that an animal attack is like a human confrontation; respond with enough force to end the attack. With the psycho foster dog and the pet shop stray, I never thought that the dogs were interested in dining on our entrails, so I wasn't out to kill them. Indianapolis has some wild dog packs running the city parks on the westside of town, and there I wouldn't be so sure. To the Brazilian member who was asking about civil liability when you kill someone's dog: In the US, the rule of thumb is that if you are attacked while minding your own business, the dog owner is liable. Unfortunately, in actual practice, provoking the dog still places the liability on the owner. You have to be doing something REALLY stupid, such as committing a burglary and getting bitten in the process, for the liability to fall on the bitten one. !@%$ing trial lawyers... Robert W. Hostetler hostetb@iserve.net Indianapolis, IN Genius: A nudist with a memory for faces. ------------------------------ From: Leslie Harris Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:20:58 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: dog attacks I've been reading the list for a while (and enjoying the posts). This is my first response. The question about dog attacks sparked my interest. I have a long background in animal shelter and control work (though I've since moved on to other things). As with martial arts, we learn to prevent an attack, then to defend ourselves from an attack, and, finally, to harm our attacker in order to get away. Basic humaneness toward the attacking dog. As another poster pointed out: a dog attacking is usually the result of a dog "owner" out of control. I have been in situations, just jogging down the road, where I've been confronted by territorial dogs. Territoriality in dogs is typically a type of fear-based aggression (i.e., a lot of show, but should still be taken seriously). When a dog runs after me barking (I run with a VERY large dog who wouldn't dream of fighting back), I keep running until he gets within about 10 feet of me. Then I stop, turn around quickly, face him, raise my hands in the air (I look bigger that way), look at him, and yell "BACK OFF!." This works every time. Striking a dog who isn't actually striking me (or anyone else) would usually be inhumane. I have been in situations inside an animal shelter where the dog is under extreme stress and can't be compared to the average "armchair guard dog" on the street. In that situation, intimidating the dog is unthinkable--the dog is too unpredictable, the surroundings too strange, his reasons for aggression too uncertain. Here is where I avoid direct eye contact, put anything I have in my hands or that is nearby between me and the dog, and back slowly away. Happily ready to exhibit submissive gestures in order to keep the situation from escalating (submissive gestures: avoiding direct, prolonged eye contact; turning slightly sideways so I'm not facing him directly; smiling; turning my head to the side and looking up at him) Here is what I have been taught in response to the "attacking dog" scenario: Avoid eye contact, back away (but do not turn your back or run away--that could make the dog braver or trigger a predatory impulse to chase), put anything you can find between yourself and the dog (a clipboard, a stick, I've used the lid of a garbage can), back toward a door (a door to a room, a house, a car). When the dog attacks, feed him the thing you have in your hand (shove the stick down his throat, etc). If you have nothing in your hand, feed him your BAD arm (i.e., your left arm if you are right-handed). Do not feed him your foot or you will be off-balance and run the risk of falling with him in control. Once something is in the dog's mouth (even if it is your bad hand), gouge at his eyes with your fingers, a pen, a stick, whatever is handy. Continue to back toward a door, if possible. Once at the door, slip through and slam his head in the door. No door? Some say fall on the dog--dogs hate that kind of close physical contact and he might release his grip (providing we aren't talking about a trained pit bull). At this point, the dog is fair game. Do what you can to injure the dog to get away. As for what to do if the dog is attacking someone else: Keep in mind that if you join the fray, you run the risk of escalating the attack (he may perceive you as joining in to help). If I saw a dog attacking a person, though, I would help (no, not the dog, the person!). But I would help with a weapon or two. Sometimes just a good blast of water in the face, pepper spray or mace (if you carry it), a loud noise, a good swift kick to the head or ribs. But be prepared to be bitten for your efforts (thus, the weapons). Except for people in law enforcement, animal control, or shady lifestyles, most of us aren't going to run across the average well-prepared pitbull (I've met hundreds of these dogs and the majority of them are good-natured and sweet). Hopefully, law enforcement and animal control personnel have the equipment and presence of mind to deal with dangerous dogs. People with shady lifestyles are on their own. Knowing the basics of dog behavior, what triggers aggression in the average dog, and how territoriality works, should keep most of us (and our kids--who should be taught NEVER to approach a strange dog) out of harm's way. Leslie 1st Dan, TKD lharris@admin.umass.edu ------------------------------ From: "Perry Seto" Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:00:18 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: UC Open Hi all, First of all, I wanted to invite everyone to join us this year for the 30th UC Open TKD Championships. It's hosted by the University of California at Berkeley Martial Arts Program (UCMAP), where I train. (This is particualry addressed to those of you who are in the San Francisco Bay Area.) The tournament is on Saturday, March 20, 1999. Because of space limitations at Cal itself (last year it ran til almost ten at night because of that), we've moved it to the Oakland Kaiser Convention Center this year. It 's supposed to be a larger venue. As soon as I get off of my duff, I'll look up and post all of the registration and other info ... I have it around the house here somewhere. :-) Being the 30th one, we're trying to make this the biggest wingding we have ever had. It's kind of a passing of the torch. Dr. Min, who started the UCMAP program and the tournament 30 years ago is in the process of retiring. By the time we hit our 35th UC Open, he will be fully retired. He passing the torch to Master Bong Kwon Park, the Olympic gold medalist in TKD in Seoul in 1988. Master Park has been with us for a couple of years now and will fully take over the program soon. Sooooooo..... COME ONE, COME ALL ..... HELP US CELEBRATE 30 YEARS OF TAE KWON DO AT CAL. Hope to see a lot of you there. :-))) You can also email me directly and I'll get you a copy of the registration package. Thanks. - -Perry- pseto@aptl.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:41:53 PST Subject: the_dojang: Self-Defense Against Hostile Animals I do feel strongly, that when you consider the top three most likely scenarios where you might have to use your martial arts skills to defend yourself. Self-defense against a hostile animal should be one of them. Steve Mower. ___________________________________ Do most of the self-defense classes you know teach safety on this issue at all or in the depth to which some of the posters have? Most of the schools I know about only teach lightweight things like carry ammonia water in a spray bottle etc in case an animal approaches you while walking/jogging. I'm not so sure how effective this would be if I came upon a child being attacked by dog. I think something like this might get the dog even more angry. Although if that situation (seeing a child being attacked) arose for me I think my maternal instincts might click on and that would be that. BTW Steve, you said of the top "3" scenarios this would be one. What would the other two be??? Thanks, as always. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: steve mower Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:17:47 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:> Has the Super Bowl started yet??? > Has the Super Bowl started yet??? > > :) > I would think not! I haven't heard of partying in the streets of Denver yet! ;^] Tang Soo! Steve Mower smower@erols.com Woodbury Heights, NJ ------------------------------ From: "Perry Seto" Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:16:05 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: advice needed OK, ya'll ....... I hope you all read my post regarding the UC Open and I hope a lot of you can make it. I, however, need some advice from you all. :-) As part of my 3rd Dan promotion, I was informed that I needed to compete this year. The UC Open, being our own tournament, was the logical choice for me. I plan on competing in poomse buuuuuuutttt ..... I also have this idea that I may get back in the ring again. That's where I need your advice. Here are the facts: - - I haven't competed in gyoroogi since 1980 or 1981 - - I'm 41 years old - - The tournament, however, doesn't have a 41 and over division like in Nationals - only 35 and over - - I'm probably about 20+ plus pounds over my "fighting" weight - - They don't have the same weight class categories in the Executive division (over 35) like in the "regular division - I think they just kinda make it up as it goes depending on the number of entrants - - I'm not in "fighting" shape/condition - as in 20 years ago Anyway, what do you think? Should I do it? Have many of you competed in the executive or golden senior arenas- locally or nationally? What have your experiences been? What kind of condition do you need to be in compared to those in the "regular" draw? I'm assuming that many of us at this age aren't in the same kind of shape that we were in when we were twenty years old. Is the competition as intense in these divisions? I'm looking to have fun ... not to take on the world. I would welcome any and all input. Thanks. - -Perry- pseto@aptl.com ------------------------------ From: steve mower Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:31:48 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:US Flag Generally the US Flag should be > to the left (its own right) and the union (field of stars) should be in the upper > right. > Say again?! (Ref:http://www.icss.com/usflag/flag.etiquette.html) Tang Soo! Steve Mower smower@erols.com Woodbury Heights, NJ ------------------------------ From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 01:30:57 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Flags From: Sam McPherson <> You are correct when the flag *is* hung vertically. Melinda was correct when hung horizontally. <> This is *not* the proper way to display the US flag. True the US flag should always be on the left and the state/other flag on it's right. But the Union should always be in the upper left. With all the (stuff) going on in Washington these days, have you ever noticed the flag hanging behind the speaker in the House or Senate? The large flag that covers the wall behind them has the Union field in the upper left.... the correct way. To many people it looks backwards... Dennis McHenry TANG SOO! ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:35:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: advice needed > - I'm not in "fighting" shape/condition - as in 20 years ago > > Anyway, what do you think? Should I do it? Sure. Go for it. You can't lose 20 lbs in 7 weeks, but you can get yourself in better shape over that period of time. Just dedicate yourself and you'll do fine... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:47:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Majordomo FAQ When people are first subscribed onto the_dojang-digest they are supposed to receive the attached automatically. Given the 'from' line problem we've been having the past few months, many have not received this through the normal automatic process. Thus it is attached for your information. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24 Jan 99 Frequently Asked Questions __________________________ ############################################################################## ## Keep this info for future reference. ## ## You are responsible for understanding the following. ## ############################################################################## Q: I just joined this list. Now what do I do? A: Just sit back and watch the messages fly by for awhile. You'll soon figure out how things work on your own. It is recommended that your read the list for about a month prior to posting to the list. Q: I don't know how to send or receive e-mail. How do I learn? 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Note: The list administer reserves the right to remove any member at any time for any reason. Q: What if I have a question not listed here? A: Send it in e-mail addressed to majordomo-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Copyright (C) 1994-99, Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource. http://www.MartialArtsResource.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:49:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #62 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.