From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #67 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 3 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 067 In this issue: the_dojang: KMA history the_dojang: RE: 2000 & Beyond` the_dojang: Re: ICHF involvement Was: United Tae Kyon Federation the_dojang: Love & Addiction the_dojang: Re Mr. Carsten Jorgensen the_dojang: Golden Seniors Re: the_dojang: Re Mr. Carsten Jorgensen the_dojang: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Seminar - Conroe, Texas the_dojang: Re: are dojangs too safe the_dojang: old guys the_dojang: martial sport the_dojang: re: "Making Your Art Street Effective" the_dojang: re:TAGB (sour grapes) the_dojang: Korean Swords/Masters Uniforms. the_dojang: Lines of Demarcation the_dojang: Slam Man vs. Bob Re: the_dojang: Re: are dojangs too safe the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800+ members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:18:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: KMA history > It's a new (long) letter, you should take a look :-) > I'm afraid it really *is* him being uninformed, of course having an agenda > dosen't make it any better. Good letter, but I remain unconvinced, at least on parts of the claims. But then who cares if you convince me... :) All in all, everyone has some agenda. GM JB Lee has his, Bob D. has is, you have yours, I have mine, etc. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:55:53 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: RE: 2000 & Beyond` >>What I wanted to mention is that my good friend just read an article of MA predictions for the new millenium. I will have her pull the mag and copy it for me. If I understood her correctly it predicts a pulling away from "ecclectic styles" and a move toward "traditional MA instruction". Has anyone else read that article? In light of your recent post Jamaica I am definately going to find it and read it. Dawne No1IDIC@aol.com << Sounds interesting and I would like to see who/where it was published. Someone once said that he looked around and around, and after a lot of searching, he came back to the original style and found that it had the answers he was looking for. It is easy to pick apart and tailor something to meet immediate needs. A deeper understanding of the original systems has solutions to what initially may be perceived to be unsolvable. They have stood the test of time. ------------------------------ From: "Sean P. Hawkins" Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 17:51:00 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: ICHF involvement Was: United Tae Kyon Federation >.... Is Master J. Klee a >student of Mr. Pelligrini? Thought I saw someone with a similar name >get an award with the ICHF several months back in TKD Times? Master Klee is indeed a student of Mr. Pelligrini. As far as the award, I can't confirm or deny. Sean P. Hawkins 2nd Gup Taekwon-do ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:15:31 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Love & Addiction <<>> Yes. Not love, but addiction. Of course, I suppose in this free world we can create conditions to constitute anyone's opinion of what "love" is. . . Quite a few individuals in abusive relationships simply have nowhere else to go ("If I leave him, where will the children & I sleep?), or fear retribution ("She said she'd come after me with the shotgun if I tried to leave"). A person can also be brainwashed to believe the continued lies and phony "promises" of the abuser in the same way an individual might be convinced of the "reality" contained in the silly doctrines preached by a religion/cult. In this case, we're often dealing with folks who have a lousy self concept to begin with, so it isn't too hard to get on their good side after a nasty beating by giving them a line of bull like "Sweetheart, I love you, I really do (giving victim flowers or other token item which is supposed to symbolize repentence). Just that sometimes -you- make me so crazy. . .I just have to beat you/whack you with the frying pan/make you watch while I burn the kids w/ cigarettes, etc." Who is the abuser dumping the blame upon, him/herself? Nah, of course not. Abusers don't take responsibility! Blame goes to the recovering, frightened victim--a person who fears not only the heartless agressor, but also being "abandoned" by the agressor. Why? They've become addicted to the pattern of abuse, and it isn't too hard for them to lie to themselves and say "this time s/he really means it. They'll change". Of course they don't change, things nearly always get worse, but fantasy may be all the victim feels s/he has left. "Love" is also a substitute word for -manipulation- in this case, for what else is the abuser is doing--stringing along a victim s/he knows is already easy, convinceable prey, trying not only to physically/mentally crush them, but also to make them think it is their own fault!!! What a world, folks--what a world. - --C.J. ------------------------------ From: Eduardo Miranda Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 22:14:51 -0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re Mr. Carsten Jorgensen > nfortunately the guy don't know much about Korean Martial Arts history. I > hope everybody who are interested in KMA history/Hwarang Do history would take > a look at my letter about his page: www.ihi.ku.dk/~carstenj/soh.htm > Mr. Jorgensen, if you have carefully read my post you would had noticed that I don't stand by Mr. Bob Duggan opinion, I just quoted some of these ideas and gave his web site address to anyone who might be interested in. Therefore I do not understand why you've been so unopolite in your reply. I've just read your post and I haven't seen anything about KMA history, only about HRD and your feelings to Mr. Bob Duggan. There is no evidence, nor proven fact, that would change my opinion and believe that HRD is a 2000 year martial art. If there isn't any good evidence this discussion would ended as your word against Mr. Duggan one. There are some facts that bother me: - - How come a 2000 year old martial art have only one Supreme Master, who has teached every other GM? Who is going to be the next SM when Joo Bang Lee passed away? His son? Has he teached the others GM too? - - HKD, KSW and HRD has some many similar techniques, do you really belive in these kind of "coincidence"? or you think everyone else has copied GM Lee techniques? Isn't Korea a small country for such conicidence? - - There are many GM who claimed there arts to be 2000 year old (specially the Korean), are they all liers but GM Lee? Unlike you I do respect any beliefs, and I don't to change yours, but if you do wnat to change mine would have to do better than this. Eduardo Miranda dudamir@uol.com.br ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:35:34 EST Subject: the_dojang: Golden Seniors In a message dated 2/2/99 2:46:17 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Great point! To keep the brainstorming going how about "Elite Seniors." Elite meaning - the best of the seniors. More ideas and names?...Since we already have Executive Seniors, I was looking at this as one step up on the hierarchy level. >> I guess this is better than what people really call it - Golden Geezers :) R. J. Sweet tkdtiger@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:30:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re Mr. Carsten Jorgensen In support of Carsten, I do not believe he has stated that HRD is 2000 years old or that the art of HwaRang Do was in any way used by the HwaRang. JB Lee did publish some books titled something like 'the ancient art of HwaRang Do', but then the marketers of Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do would have you believe they, too, are ancient Korean arts. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "John Bennett" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:35:29 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Seminar - Conroe, Texas On Saturday and Sunday, February 27th and 28th, Carlos Machado will conduct a comprehensive two-day Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu seminar in Conroe, Texas. Conroe is just north of Houston, Texas. The seminar will allow you to improve your existing grappling skills and supplement your regular training with new ideas. Carlos Machado travels to Brazil and Japan several times a year to work with other elite grapplers in his quest for the most innovative techniques and applications. Attend either day or both days. Participants from all styles and levels are welcomed! For more information, please contact the seminar host Kurtis Bodiford at 409-447-5900. or, visit the seminar web page at: http://www.machadojj.com/carlos/seminarhou.htm Thanks! John Bennett ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:59:11 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: are dojangs too safe >From: "Jamaica Power" >Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:19:17 PST >Subject: the_dojang: Are Dojangs Too Safe? >Over the years and with the Americanization of martial arts the >atmosphere in many of the dojangs has taken on a new persona. In the >transistion, however, I wonder if we have created a too safe, sterile, >and climate controlled environment which could mislead the clients and >lull them into a sense of false security. Over the years, our entire society has gone in the direction of being too safe. People in general have tried to remove all risk from their lives. I read an editorial last year that has stuck with me, contending that the proliferation of tv shows like "world's scariest police chases" has succeeded because people are living such insulated lives they crave sensation. It's entirely possible that some of these people are choosing to take up martial arts instead of watching hours of police chases and animal attacks on tv. I think that it is an instructor's responsibility to guard against many of the bad things this can lead to. Your use of the word client strikes an issue too. Are we clients? Students? Customers? Disciples? When a school is run as a business, those lines can blur. >Many instructors have geared toward making their schools more >socially-oriented largely based on consumer demand. Aside from the >dispensing of belts more frequently another issue is that individuals >that join for social reasons are frequently looking for group support, >acceptance, and socializing and the martial arts becomes a second >priority. (Not saying there's anything wrong with that because we all >join for different reasons.) Well, obviously many of us will say that is a mistake those instructors are making, but in reality I'm sure this is happening all over the place. My instructor always asks people why they are wanting to learn before they start. But I doubt this is too useful, I suspect many people do not know why when they are just starting. And, like you said, there's nothing wrong with peple joining for different reasons. But on the floor, martial arts has to be your first priority or people will get hurt. >When individuals put on their dobak, tie on that belt and join the group >in the same building with regular and systematic schedules they can >count on, they feel safe and protected as well as having the feeling >they can also protect. Through this isolated group support they >sometimes give to each other undeserved applauds and recognition for >M.A. skills that aren't really very good, mediocre at best, nor would >they be useful in any confrontation and sometimes might prove to be >dangerous. Confidence is one thing but unchecked enthusiasm and an >over-evaluation of these skills can be harmful to themselves, family, >and friends. Sometimes this overconfidence can even provoke fights and >confrontations outside the school. If people are running around overconfiendtly provoking fights outside the school, they will probably "get what's coming to them"... not saying I wish this on people, but it is the probably outcome. I think you make very good points that we should all keep in sight of exactly what we are doing, and the fact that it is a very controlled situation. >I find another group uses and perceives the dojang as say a "fitness >club" rather than a martial arts school aided by the promotion of the >new m.a. type fitness tapes and infomercials. Doesn't matter if your >school offers the newer programs the overall perception is influencing >all styles of martial arts. Perhaps. I wish I had enough experience to evaluate this and see this happening. You're probably right. Personally, I'm glad that doing TKD, which I love, has fitness benefits, but when I watched a demo of "aerobic kickboxing" all I could think was "so what, I'd rather be doing TKD" :) >I would appreciate some other views on this especially since there is >still a reality in the minds of the general public, in the courts of >law, on TV that if you're a martial arts practitioner you are skilled >at techniques of self defense and carry the burden of greater >resonsibility and accountability for your actions in any community and >all that comes with it and yet soft style martial arts is taking >precedence and at a face pace. Everyone should carry the responsibility of their actions in the community, and while the perception tat any black belt can do a mystical death touch from 10 feet away is obvious bull, I think that we should as martial arts students hold *ourselves* accountable for our actions. And instructors should think about what they are teaching and to whom, and what those peole are inlcined to do with what they learn. As for the public becoming more educated about this anytime soon, Im'm not holding my breath.. >Do you feel these perceptions will change our world of martial arts >positively and significantly, or diminish it's respect level? Which perceptions? I feel that the "safing down" of society in general is diminishing everything (don't get me wrong, if I had a baby I would put him in a car seat, but things in general have gone too far). The safing down of martial arts has to have a negative effect, but we have to be careful to remember that ALL of us will draw a line somewhere. After all, as my instructor says, "if you injure your partner you will have no one to practice with". >Have the discussions now extended beyond TKD traditional vs. TKD Olympic >to TKD traditional vs TKD Olympic vs TKD Fitness Club. It has now :) Thanks for starting this very interesting and insightful topic. Sandy Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com - -- tokay@netwurx.net ------------------------------ From: "Perry Seto" Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:43:33 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: old guys Hey you "really" guys are making me feel young again. Wow .... fifty years old .... now THAT"S old!! hehe I feel like such a kid at 41. :-)) Actually, I liked that line about age and treachery from Ray. I train at UC Berkeley so, because of the campus environment, most of the students are quite young. I'm the second oldest at 41. There is one other at 42. Then there's a smattering between 30 and 40. In our red/black belt class there are usually 30 to 50 people working out and I would say that over 85% of them are WELL under 30 - even a few 18 and 19 year olds - after all, it is a campus environment. :-) Like Ray, I depend on treachery when I spar. Actually, it's not really treachery. Since most of these kids have been started their training in the last ten years or so, and since we train in the WTF/Olympic style, most of them haven't ever really seen a real punch thrown at them. Soooooo .... unlike them, I actually use punches. In fact, I often use my kicks to set up my punches. Works everytime. :-)) Suprises the heck out of 'em too. So what if it don't score. It still feels good to land a solid punch. (One for the "old school") :-) >Hey, while we old geezers have the floor, what do think we can do to get rid of that obnoxious "Golden Seniors" designation? I think something like "Ancient Warriors" has a lot more going for it. Somehow the GS sounds like we're all using walkers and carrying ear-trumpets. Kerry 1st Gup TKD< Can somebody straighten this out for me? Is the "Golden Seniors" division at Nationals for the 41 and over group or is the "Executive Seniors" the 41 and over group? I was looking at the registration form today for the California State Championships and it had the "Executive Seniors" as the 41 and over group. Sooooo ..... (as is typical for me) I'm confused - I thought it was the other way around. Thanks. - -Perry- pseto@aptl.com ps - How about "the best of the best" as a division name? hehe - just kidding :-) ------------------------------ From: "Perry Seto" Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:24:03 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: martial sport Jamaica, In reference to your thread regardign TKD as a martial art vs martial sport vs cardio program ..... This was and is one of my biggest complaints about WTF TKD as it stands today. I think the martial art has become nothing but a sport. I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with it being a sport ... I love that aspect of it too. I just think we need to find a balance again. To me, martial arts (and life) has always been about balance. Eccentricities in any direction, to me anyway, seem to eventually end up being more detrimental than helpful. I started in the martial arts for the tradition and arts aspect of it as well as for the competition aspect. I don't ever hear anybody talk about martial arts philosophy in my club anymore. That's one of the things I enjoy about this forum. Things like tradition do come up as topics. I "preach" at the younger guys and gals in our club all the time. I try to get them to work more on the "traditional" basics. I would like to see them work on something that has at least a LITTLE more practical aspect to it. I have to say that, even though I was trained in a more "traditional" environment, I would never claim to be a great street fighter. I've never really had to go out and test my skills .... nor have I really wanted to. I do believe, however, that, should the occasion arise, I would be in a better position to defend myself than most of the "younger" ones in my club. Who knows .... it may or may not be so. I've had this discussion with some of the "older" guys in the club. We have roughly 150 to 200 students in the TKD program at Berkeley. Out of all those students my best guesstimate is that maybe ten to twenty (let's even say 50) will be heavy competitors. Out of that group, maybe a handful are of national level competition caliber. And, out of that group, you may get one or two (maybe three) that are at an international level. So ..... what are you going to do with the other 100 to 150, or more, people? I thought teaching them a martial art instead of a martial sport might be kind of novel. :-) Maybe somebody will say that all of these other people WANT to learn a martial sport. That's fine and dandy and I think it's great if they do. I just don't think it is true. I had a young lady - all of 19 years old - in my class the other day that said she took up Tae Kwon Do because she wanted to learn a martial art. I didn't correct her there, but I hope she doesn't become disillusioned or, even more worrisome, get a false sense of what she really has/will learn and can do. Anyway, that's my two dollars worth. :-) Just want to thank Ray for hosting a forum like this, where I can get this off of my chest. :-) And, thanks to all of you too. - -Perry- pseto@aptl.com ------------------------------ From: Mark Brazier Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:17:33 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: re: "Making Your Art Street Effective" >>One of our most popular drills has the student sit or stand in the middle of the mat with their eyes closed. They have to defend themselves against other >> students one at a time. The attacking student chooses the attack (which cannot be a kick or punch for obvious reasons). There is a drill that was practised when I did Seven Star Preying Mantis, where one student is blindfolded and attacked with a kick or a punch (with control). The idea was as soon as the contact was made you'd react by trapping, moving and countering. I never did it well when I tried it, but some of the guy's that had been training for along time could fight off multiple opponents with it. They must have been using their Chi...which brings me nicely to the subject of...(just kidding Ray) Your class sounds really good though. Same kind of stuff that I love doing. How long are classes? Mark Brazier mark.brazier@hunhcare.co.uk ------------------------------ From: Mark Brazier Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:05:42 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: re:TAGB (sour grapes) Quick apology. I re-read my post on TAGB from yesterday. It came across as sour grapes (which is true). Apologies for any offence caused. - - I'm getting pretty good at this retraction business. In the future I'm thinking I should think a bit more before I shoot my mouth off. :-) Mark Brazier mark.brazier@hunhcare.co.uk ------------------------------ From: CMPorter@webtv.net (Chris Porter) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 05:42:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Korean Swords/Masters Uniforms. Hello, I am looking for a Korean sword, a real working sword, does anyone know any importers or outlets where I can purchase one? How about a real double ended chang? Also I was wondering at what level (3rd,4th,5th degree black belt) in your arts do you become ranked as a master? What type of uniform and belt combo does a master wear? Thanx in advance for your help. P.S. I have heard that Kuk Sool Won schools have training swords , if so do you know how I can get on? Thank you, Chris CMPorter@webtv.net ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 06:08:29 PST Subject: the_dojang: Lines of Demarcation The distinction being? I would take 'self-preservation' to mean keeping yourself alive/ safe from harm. Defending yourself in a violent confrontation would be a subset of that, which is 'self defence'. MAs deal with the later, rather than how to keep yourself safe from any kind of danger. I don't know MAs schools which teach 'Pick an airline which won't crash' or 'Avoiding food poisoning'. But this is not the point I was making. D. Walsh _______________________________________ Another martial artist has brought to my attention a very important point for consideration and that is lines of demarcation. I made the mistake of assuming others thought as I did that when you are a martial artist there are no boundaries or lines of demarcation. In other words when you train in the martial arts I always believed that the martial arts were incorporated, blended into my entire life (complete and whole). Influence every aspect of my life. That there isn't any distinction or boundaries between situations or occurrences. When I respond to a situation I respond as a person and as a trained martial artist and to me they are one and the same be it a dog attack, an airline crash, a confrontation at work. I have been influenced significantly by my studies in m.a. and those studies are what guide me and influence me in my daily life both covertly and overtly. I would appreciate other opinions on this subject. Are you able to differentiate the martial arts in their applications and usefulness to you? Is the martial arts your life or just one component of it? Thanks, Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 06:42:08 PST Subject: the_dojang: Slam Man vs. Bob And I was just getting used to Bob. Now I find out there's a Slam Man! and that Slam Man has 8 target lights, is programmed for combination training, is a great stress reducer, great for hand/eye coordination improvement, and for increasing the intensity and effectiveness the manufacturers and infomericals emphasize the use of footwork in addition to punching. Sounds like a high tech version of the makiwara board. I understand you need 240 lbs of sand to stabilize him and although he would be great for beginning to intermediate punches/kicks if you are seeking to improve your kicks the old heavy bag or water bag is still superior. Anyone use Slam Man? Looks and sounds like something from WCW, NWO or WWF. Funny they havent' come out with female versions of this product yet. You know, sort of like storms. The most violent ones are given female names. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:31:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: are dojangs too safe > Over the years, our entire society has gone in the direction of being > too safe. People in general have tried to remove all risk from their > lives. I read an editorial last year that has stuck with me, contending > that the proliferation of tv shows like "world's scariest police chases" > has succeeded because people are living such insulated lives they crave > sensation. I am constantly reminded of Ben Franklin who said (something like) 'Those that would give up freedom for safety deserve neither'. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:31:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #67 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.