From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #72 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 5 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 072 In this issue: the_dojang: Titles the_dojang: Re: kyosa, bu sabum, sabum, bu kwanja, kwangja? the_dojang: Re: Kwanjangnim - Rank the_dojang: ATAMA Winter 99 Seminar the_dojang: Kyosanim the_dojang: RE: kyosa, bu sabum, sabum, bu kwanja, kwangja? the_dojang: Re: Various. the_dojang: Define Number of Years! the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #71 the_dojang: rank and uniform the_dojang: Re: young female athletes the_dojang: An Andro Funny Re: the_dojang: Re: young female athletes the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800+ members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lacquement Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:07:44 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Titles In my school, 1st Dans are Kyosanim, 2nd & 3rd Dans are Kyobumnim, 4th Dans are sabumninm and 5th are kwanjangnim. ------------------------------ From: Brian Karas Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:06:25 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: kyosa, bu sabum, sabum, bu kwanja, kwangja? >>>>In my TKD association you are addressed as Sabumnim at 3rd dan. At 4th >dan >you are addressed as Bu Kwanjangnim, and at 5th dan and above as >Kwanjangnim, if you own your own school. Our uniforms are also color coded >according to rank. As a 2nd dan (Bu Sabumnim<<< > >Does anyone use the title "Kyosanim" any more? I used to be at a school >where Kyosanim meant "student instructor"(1st, 2nd, 3rd Dan) if I remember >correctly. > As far as I know, my organization never used the term Kyosanim. As a 1st dan, my title was Chokyonim. Brian ------------------------------ From: Brian Karas Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:18:50 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kwanjangnim - Rank ><< t 4th dan you are addressed as Bu Kwanjangnim, and at 5th dan and above as >Kwanjangnim, if you own your own school. Our uniforms are also color coded >according to rank. >> > >This is sort of interesting. I've had discussions like this with Scott Shaw >as well. In his book on HKD, he says Kwanjangnim means grandmaster, and you >have to be a 7th dan. You are saying you have to be 5th dan. > I guess that's what I'm saying. I've never heard of Kwanjangnim meaning grandmaster, though. It just means school owner. Our Kwanjangnims are also called Master, but I don't think that is how the term translates. Our grandmaster is just saying that when you reach 5th dan you are called Master.I can either call my instructor Kwanjangnim or I can call him Master. The two do not mean the same thing. Brian ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:37:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: ATAMA Winter 99 Seminar ATAMA Winter 1999 Seminar Sunday, February 21, 1999, 1PM to 4PM French American International School Gym 151 Oak Street San Francisco, CA Presenters: Professor Bill Grossman (stretching), Professor Leroy Rodrigues (lunging reverse punch), Dr. Howard Longsdale M.D. (injury from specific blows), Professor Harry Serman (jujutsu restraints). Cost: Members $20 Non-members: $25 All seminar participants will receive a free ATAMA T-shirt. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:35:12 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Kyosanim From: Greg Giddins <> We do. I may call a 1st dans Bo-Kyosanim (assistant instructor), 2nd & 3rd dans Kyosanim (instructor). As an instructor is ready for 4th dan (while still 3rd), I will refer to them as Bo-Sabomnim (assist. master). 4th dans up are usually Sabomnim (Master). The head of our organization we refer to as Kwanjangnim, who is our Grandmaster (10th Dan and founder). Dennis McHenry TANG SOO! ------------------------------ From: "Vovk, Lenny" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:27:07 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: kyosa, bu sabum, sabum, bu kwanja, kwangja? Years ago, when I was active in TKD, the proper ways to address black belts in my organization (GM Hyun Ok Shin's United TKD Chung Do Kwan) were: 1st Dan: Sungsanim (sp?) 2nd Dan: Bu Kyosanim 3rd Dan: Kyosanim 4th Dan: Bu Sabomnim above 4th: Sabomnim Regards. -- Lenny Vovk lenny.vovk@csfb.com ------------------------------ From: Ernest Hart Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:31:30 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Various. > From: "Chris Rock" > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:38:15 -0700 > Subject: the_dojang: 3rd Dan Testing > I was just invited to test for my 3rd Dan in May by my Master Instructor and Congrats! > What were your tests like for 3rd Dan, and as instructors what would you > expect to see a 3rd Dan perform? Other than walking through fire, dancing on razor sharp swords, and blowing up chickens from 10 feet away? :) Seriously, I'd expect a very competent person. Capable of performing all of their techniques with very sharp precision and control, but also capable of pulling out all of the stops. Depending on your curriculum, that could include precision breaking with advanced technique, multiple opponent free sparring or self-defense, power breaking, demonstration of patterns, etc. > I already have a pretty good idea on what I want to do, but I am curious how > it would compare to what others around the world were required to do. Any > input on this matter would be greatly appreciated. I compared my 3 Dan test to my 2nd Dan test, and this is the best analogy that I can come up with. Some undergraduate students will take a graduate level course as seniors. The graduate students will be required to do more in-depth work, and be held to a higher standard, but it's basically the same material, and both classes get the same lecture. My test went as follows: Basic kicking and movement Basic stance and hand technique Basic pattern Intermediate (all 3 above) Advanced pattern Advanced kicking More patterns Self-defense techniques from various positions Self-defense against a knife Free sparring (Several rounds) Board breaking (break of our choice to demonstrate skill) Verbal questioning Promotion > Ray Terry wrote: > One used to be able to skip-dan in the WTF, e.g. Masters moving from another > org into the WTF. But I was told that is not possible any longer. Anyone > else hear that??? I've heard the opposite. Any person of sufficient rank can jump someone up to 3rd for the fun of it, provided the paperwork fees are paid to the KKW. One would have to pay for all of the tests, though. To go from 1 Dan to 3 Dan, it would cost the 2 Dan fee + the 3 Dan fee. USTU Dan office or KKW could give you the facts, I'd imagine. > From: Greg Giddins > Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:53:19 -0700 > Subject: the_dojang: kyosa, bu sabum, sabum, bu kwanja, kwangja? > Does anyone use the title "Kyosanim" any more? I used to be at a school > where Kyosanim meant "student instructor"(1st, 2nd, 3rd Dan) if I remember > correctly. We do, but I'm pretty sure that it's not the correct term, or doesn't mean student instructor. Where and when did you hear that term used? E. Hart Burlington, VT ehart@zoo.uvm.edu ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 12:43:06 PST Subject: the_dojang: Define Number of Years! ...but it certainly doesn't tell you if that person has been training/studying for the last 3 years, only that he got his belt 3 years ago. G. Giddins. - --------------------------------------- Ah, such an excellent point and an issue that has always bothered me. Even if a person is training/studying for say 3 years; what exactly does that mean? There was a time when I trained 4 x a week and each session was a minimum of 2 1/2 hours and that was just class time. This did not involve tournaments and personal training and at one point I paid extra for a personal m.a. trainer. Now there were a few other people in class. You would see them say once every six months but the instructor liked them. Promoted them up the ranks past everyone else. Put an ad in the local paper (with big pictures no less) saying these people had trained for "x number of years." My comment was "Say What!???" You've got to be kidding!!!. So really now, what constitutes years anyway. Seems like that is pretty ambiguous in itself. 3 or 4 or 5 years but they pit stopped in and blessed us with their presence and they made sure the rest of us knew it. And when they did get their blackbelts in the same fashion, they made sure that they kept reminding everyone else what blackbelt they were and they certainly could strut about. Not sure if they were trying to convince themselves or the rest of us. Although with their egos and specialized treatment I'm sure they really feel they really, really worked for it. Yeah right! Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Steven Gilmore Date: Fri, 5 Feb 99 15:45:32 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #71 Greg Giddins asked: >Does anyone use the title "Kyosanim" any more? I used to be at a school >where Kyosanim meant "student instructor"(1st, 2nd, 3rd Dan) if I remember >correctly. > Yes, in Kuk Sool Won. 1st dan = jokyonim (literally, teaching assistant) 2nd dan = kyosanim (literally, teacher or lecturer) 3rd dan = pusabumnim (literally, vice-instructor) 4th dan = sabumnim (literally, instructor) 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th dan = kwanjangnim (literally, head master or school master) 9th dan = chohngkwanjangnim (literally, overall master or regional master) 10th dan = kuksanim (national teacher) I offer the following, exerpted from a discussion of titles on the Kuk Sool Won mailing list a few months ago: "Because Kuk Sool is a traditional style of martial arts, it is best understood within the context of Korean culture and history. We use titles to...show respect to our seniors. ...the words have literal translations and can be used in other contexts besides martial arts. Jo Kyo Nim means assistant to the teacher. In the military, this word would refer to someone like a drill sargeant. At the university, it means teaching assistant. Kyo Sa Nim means teacher, professor, or lecturer. Sun Saeng Nim is another word for teacher and is more commonly heard. It has a broader meaning than Kyo Sa Nim... Sa Bum Nim means instructor or coach. This is the most commonly used title in Korean martial arts, as many styles do not give different titles to refer to different levels of dahn. A "Pu" in front of that simply means junior or vice. Kwan Jang Nim means school master or a proprietor of a building. A "chong" in front of that means great. Kuk Sa Nim literally means national teacher... Historically, civil servants had to take an exam on the Confucian Classics before they ere granted a position. The person in charge of this national test was called Kuk Sa Nim." Sincerely, Steven Gilmore San Antonio, TX ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:54:30 EST Subject: the_dojang: rank and uniform Well after reading the various posts on uniforms and titles it occurs to me that what I know of WTF TKD and HKD in my area is pretty simple. Master is a title reserved for 5th dan and above (Kukkiwon). The rank displayed on the dan certificate is the rank that person holds. Our GM just got his certif. from his 7th dan HKD test he took in Korea. If a black belt (say 2nd, 3rd or 4th dan) is teaching class s/he is referred to as Mister or Mam. At the end of class we bow to the flags, then to the instructor and say thank you in Korean. when it is a Master or GM we use Sabunim. I've hardly attended a class not taught by a Master or GM but it is clear that the same respect is given if a BB is asked to teach or assist in a given class. Our uniforms are very much simpler too. Everyone has a white dobak with school logo on back. School patch over the heart and the flags on the sleeves. Once you become a BB you can have a black collar on your uniform. My friends have one put on the uniform rather than buy all new uniforms. You see the more advanced students in ADIDAS, Pine Tree or Otomix uniforms. After some time most people I know start investing in those so they always have a spare. Your belt color shows your gub. Your black belt has one gold bar on the tip for every dan and your name and school name are embroided on the ends in Hangul in gold thread. I think it looks great. Our HKD GM has black pants and a white top that has black thread on it so it looks like a diamond print. Very hard to describe but it looks great. I know lots of ladies who can't wait for BB so they can switch to black pants b/c black is far more becoming than white, :0) Dawne ------------------------------ From: "SylverEyes, Perky Death Goddess of Alternate Reality(Crackland)" Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:07:16 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: young female athletes > Jamacia noted: > > < to 18 yo) that said first, of course, to always provide positive > feedback and praise, but second if you have two female athletes in a > class (say that just sparred against one another) and you praised both > of them but then gave one corrective information, the corrected female > may perceive herself to be less capable than her teammate. Apparently > at that age the young women pick up the subtle differences in how their > coaches and instructors praise and respond to different players more so > than young male athletes.>> *grin* I myself am a "young female athlete"... I just turned 16 a couple of months ago... and I guess I could say something.. :) am I the youngest on this list? Before I start writing I'm just going to say.. my words aren't reflective of all the other female athletes my age... I'm a little more screwed up than they are... :) I'm manic-depressive and otherwise messed up(and obviously that's going to affect my view), but other than that, I'm just going to share my _honest_ thoughts, since we were on the subject anyway. I've only been training(TKD) for a year now and I can tell you it's been _very_ rocky for me... to start of with I never felt that I was really ever atheletic, actually all through elementary school and the first few years of hs I was kind of an atheletic dud. :) All I ever did was swim, which doesn't really ever translate much to land sports :). Anyway, I being masochistic but also logical, I joined a club with my friend after trying out several - this club, of course, was the one where I actually sweat, and where my muscles hurt for _weeks_ afterward. (This trial-thing also showed me how horrible some TKD places... you wouldn't believe this one gym I went to.. agh now that I think back it was so bad... i feel sorry for those kids) Anyway, my master is a fairly nice guy, but he has no sense of tact. He doesn't. He was brought up in Europe, and sometimes he just doesn't get stuff. But anyway, I was plagued with self-doubt all through the first few months. I did the stuff, I mean, I didn't understand the concept of power and all that yet. About five months into it, my master began to get edgy, and there was one day where he just picked on me continously. The entire class, all he did was point out all my faults to the whole class and after that day my self-esteem took a plunge. The fact that he liked my friend a hel of a lot better didn't help, since he would tell people that she was a good fighter and had great spinning hook kicks and while I was sparring with her once he kept bothering me and complimenting her. So while my self-esteem went to negative-something, my friend was getting this whole boost, and that was that. My master went on vacation and I had time to "recuperate" I guess you could say. The black belt in charge while he was gone was a lot nicer and his suggestions were... more like suggestions, and not like criticisms. I guess that helped... and I got better... I guess... ;) That was like, what, five months ago? That was during the summertime. I was continously comparing myself to others, even to people who had been training for years, and it's just in my nature, I think, to put pressure on myself and to really have way too high expectations for myself. I don't know if it's just me or if we're all like that. I'm not "popular", and while I've done the teenage-experimentation stuff.. cigarettes, pot, going out late, blah... I think I've crashed and mellowed out. :) (jesus am I talking too much or what) I don't know, it's too long of a story to tell. But basically, I think we as teenagers are pummeled with so many different views, opinions, thoughts, images.. I mean... it's all contradictory and confusing and odd. The adults are our enemies and our friends at the same time. It's insanity. Adults hate us, they fear us, they shun us and they say we're slackers, disrespectful, etc. Our emotions are in turmoil and we are criticized for it. I could always tell who my master liked and didn't like. I perceived that, maybe because I'm a girl, or maybe because I'm intuitive, or whatever. Blah. Now things have changed. I train more often than my friend. I swim, which I find is a great complement, even a few laps a week(I'm doing this lifeguarding course thing). TKD started off as being okay, then hell, then fun, and now... I don't know. I'm still continually plagued with self-doubt, expectations of myself I could never hope to meet, comparing myself to people and wondering why I can't be that good... etc... you know the deal. I would suggest, if you have young female athletes at your dojang, encourage them a lot... don't overflatter them because that's just stupid.. but just keep in mind that a lot of us are "smile now cry laters" - meaning, we know that you don't mean any harm, we know that it's for our own good, that it builds strength, etc... but it hurts anyways... it stabs... My master doesn't mean to be a jerk, he's straightforward, and he says what he means, and I understand that. Is it weak to be hurt by his comments, or is it justified? I don't know. I don't know if I'll last all throughout my black belt program, I really don't. Sheesh. I think I need therapy. Anyway. I'll shutup now. I probably helped absolutely no one in my long rant. :) Just be kind. But don't be loose. Be strict but kind. syl - -- drowning in dreams - http://www.swansongs.net/drowned ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 14:14:27 PST Subject: the_dojang: An Andro Funny Some things in life are just too funny and downright ridiculous. This is one. When one strategy fails try another. Every since the hulabaloo about Mark McGwier using androstenedione, the fear of a depleting marketplace amongst athlete clients has now opened another door for one of the manufacturers. They have imminent plans to market and distribute Andro to older women as the "pink Viagara." Guess they'll try anything. I think it's a riot.. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:25:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: young female athletes > > syl > Wow! Great post... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:26:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #72 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.