From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #73 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 6 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 073 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #70 the_dojang: Time in Belt the_dojang: gangstas the_dojang: RE: Old geezers & young lions the_dojang: skip-dan the_dojang: Re: rank designations the_dojang: syl the_dojang: Re: sylvereyes the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #72 the_dojang: A young adolescent the_dojang: # of years, undesreving BB's the_dojang: Disciples! the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #71 the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800+ members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:18:30 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #70 In a message dated 2/4/99 2:03:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << For me personally, a martial artist is still a student and a most precious commodity like a gemstone. Something to be cherished and taken care of, educated, and supported as they grow and develop and uncover the many layers of their emerging character. Something very, very special. For a truly dedicated student is a rare breed today. >> For all of the instructors out there, I was wondering what exactly stands out the most to you as an example of a truly dedicated student? Do you find that you tend to take those students "under your wing" a little more than others, due to the fact that you believe in their dedication? What are a few of your pet peeves as far as examples of what not to do in class? The reason I ask, is that I take my study of TKD very seriously (while still having fun) but am always trying to develop stronger character and a greater respect for the art and it's foundation. I do consider myself a "student" and truly hope that my instructor views me in that light. (Although, there are plenty of people in my class that do not take any of it very seriously and are there more for the social aspect....which is OK too I suppose.) I would love to fit the description that Jamaica so eloquently defined in her post above. Anyway, I would really appreciate your replies. Thanks, Mary ------------------------------ From: Greg Giddins Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:48:34 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Time in Belt >Now there were a few other people in >class. You would see them say once every six months but the instructor >liked them. Promoted them up the ranks past everyone else In one of the schools I attended the Kwangjanim (I used the correct word, aren't you all proud of me? haa haa) used a "classes attended" format instead of "time in belt" to determine seniority and promotion. All students had to sign in before every class. The colored belts would get one thin black stripe at the end of their belts for every 8 class hours, after 4 stripes the student was eligable to test to the next geup rank. For blackbelts there was a threshold of something like 500 class hours and 100 teaching hours to be eligable for 2nd Dan, 750 class and 200 teaching for 3rd, etc. And this program was INCREDIBLE for class attendance (especially the kids, they LOVED getting new stripes!!!!), and made things very easy for the students to determine seniority and line up by rank accordingly. There was no shulffling as students tried to remember who tested for their green belt first...you just looked at their stripes. And there was no opportunity for favoritisim to affect promotions. You can't advance until you've put in the training time. It was an incredible system, it would only break down when you forgot to sign in repeatedly... or if you stopped signing in after getting your blackbelt because you were unaware he was tracking blackbelt attendance too. (*cough* blush, ahem, like me) Greg Giddins ggiddins@ossinc.net If you are living like there is no God, you'd better be right. ------------------------------ From: Ken Brown Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:37:10 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: gangstas I'm sorry, maybe it was on the other list, but I seem to remember seeing a post in somewhat recent months about HKD and Korean gangsters. Anyone out there that could lend a hand in finding out any more about the connection? Thanks, Ken Brown Chicago, IL ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:46:29 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Old geezers & young lions > And boy, I thought I laid off for a long time. 11 years seems like > nothing > now compared to you. lol > > I'm glad you got back into it though, Kerry. Good luck on your imminent > 1st > dan test. > > - -Perry- > > Thank you! With luck and perseverance I'll test in April, if not then October. Actually this is for what we call Dan-Bo, ( a temporary BB ) then followed at least 6 months later by a 1st Dan test. Sooner or later, I'll get there. One thing I'll say after all the comments from the Ancient Warriors / Fogies / Executive Seniors / Old Geezers / Dirty Old Men ;-) is that the older group certainly isn't lacking for spirit. And after the post from Syl, I'd say the young ones are giving us a run for our money. Great post, Syl. Kerry kerry.atchinson@wichita.boeing.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:10:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: skip-dan > I've heard the opposite. Any person of sufficient rank can jump >someone up to 3rd for the fun of it, provided the paperwork fees are >paid to the KKW. One would have to pay for all of the tests, though. >To go from 1 Dan to 3 Dan, it would cost the 2 Dan fee + the 3 Dan fee. >USTU Dan office or KKW could give you the facts, I'd imagine. I recently heard that kkw skip-dans were no longer possible. In the past I agree with what you say above. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 19:25:59 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: rank designations Greg Giddins asked, does anyone use the title kyosa anymore. In our school 2nd dans instructing class are addressed that way. Also, our master instructor, an 8th dan, is addressed (assumable at his preference) as Sabumnim. - -- tokay@netwurx.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:23:31 EST Subject: the_dojang: syl > I'll shutup now. I probably helped absolutely no > one in my long rant. :) Just be kind. But don't be loose. Be strict but > kind. > > syl > on the contrary you made us all think. we hit this magic age and we forget we used to be young adults. even me and I'm only 27 :) I know lots of students who are "smile now and cry later" type of people. Thats bad enough b/c people should be encouraged and not discouraged. what can be worse is that some get to be "smile now and gripe later" which is really bad for morale. you mentioned your black belt program. I hope its fun for you, you know exciting in a sweaty, achy way rather than something to "get through" which brings me to something I've been really thinking about lately. Loyalty. When I read Syl's post I thought "geesh, TKD is EXTRA-curricular and we PAY for it. Negative feelings are NOT supposed to be in the package!!" If you aren't getting what you need in a dojang do you just leave? Transfer, take a hiatus? Or even more complicated, what if you respect and LIKE your master but the program just doesn't fit you like it did when you joined? Anybody with a deep knowledge of Korean culture wanna chime in? American culture would seem to say find the service that best fits your needs with the most competitive price. how does that differ from Korean business protocols? Thanks again Syl for the "wake up call" I hope I remember it when my kids hit the teens. Dawne No1IDIC@aol.com ------------------------------ From: steve mower Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 21:26:32 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: sylvereyes > From: "SylverEyes, Perky Death Goddess of Alternate Reality(Crackland)" > > Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:07:16 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: young female athletes The adults are our enemies and our > friends at the same time. It's insanity. Adults hate us, they fear us, > they shun us and they say we're slackers, disrespectful, etc. Our > emotions are in turmoil and we are criticized for it. I'm father to a 16 year old son, and an 18 year old daughter, no matter how it's perceived... We(adults) love you(our teenagers) very much... Tang Soo! Steve Mower Woodbury Heights, NJ ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:46:28 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #72 In a message dated 2/5/99 3:05:27 PM Pacific StandardTime, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Ray Terry wrote: > One used to be able to skip-dan in the WTF, e.g. Masters moving from another > org into the WTF. But I was told that is not possible any longer. Any= one > else hear that??? =09I've heard the opposite. Any person of sufficient rank can jump someone up to 3rd for the fun of it, provided the paperwork fees are paid to the KKW. One would have to pay for all of the tests, though. To go from 1 Dan to 3 Dan, it would cost the 2 Dan fee + the 3 Dan fee. USTU Dan office or KKW could give you the facts, I'd imagine. >> Dear Mr. Terry, I am in agreement with you Ray...almost. Skipping rank is impossible ... except when recommended by an NGB president.... ...According to an extremely reliable source: Due to the fact that rampa= nt abuse of the skip dan process was taking place, its availability has been severely restricted by the WTF/Kukkiwon for the past several years. Currently, an NGB President such as that of the USTU, the Korea Taekwondo Association, or the German Taekwondo Bund, must sign the application as th= e "recommender," in lieu of merely any higher ranking dan holder signing. S= aid NGB President should review the applicant's r=E9sum=E9, and find good caus= e for the "skipping" of rank. What do you think of that, sir? S.E.Silz ------------------------------ From: "Jana Lise" Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 20:47:45 PST Subject: the_dojang: A young adolescent >One of the points made in _Reviving Ophelia_ is that as normally >self-confident, athletic girls enter into the middle school/jr high >scene, they learn that being an athlete is not a popular thing to be. >The bulk of the popular girls are the ones that are concerned about >appearances, tend to party and "act" grown up by doing drugs, having >sex, etc. Ok, at sixteen, I think I'd qualify as being one of those "athletic young adolescents":) that Jamaica and Karla were referring to, so I figured I'd have to add my .02 in the matter. I love being an athlete...I've been athletic all my life, and studying TSD for almost three years (not that I consider that an enormous amount of time). Peer pressure doesn't really bother me, I guess because of the fact that I homeschool (so there's no-one to pressure me but...well...ME!!!). I don't think I've ever seen MTV and I certainly don't fit that anorexic image...I can outmuscle some of my guy peers. :) (I'm on the stocky side) So I guess I've established the fact that I'm not the norm. ;) (as some people in this forum know already) All I really wanted to say is that constructive criticism doesn't bother me a bit. There aren't many teen girls in my class, but if I'm singled out to recieve some kind of instruction or criticism on a kick or form, whether in front of the class or privately, I'm not bothered. I know that I don't completely stink at TSD, but there's always room for improvement. :) But does it really matter on the age? I mean, aren't some people more receptive to criticism than others, regardless of age or sex? Tang Soo! Jana ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Aaron J Woodburn Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 00:42:22 EST Subject: the_dojang: # of years, undesreving BB's Jamacia wrote: ________________ Now there were a few other people in class. You would see them say once every six months but the instructor liked them. Promoted them up the ranks past everyone else. Put an ad in the local paper (with big pictures no less) saying these people had trained for "x number of years." My comment was "Say What!???" You've got to be kidding!!!. ____________________________________________________________ I kno my subject seems like a contradiction in terms, in fact it was hard to fathom the correct wording for such a thing. I know exactly what you are talking about Jamacia, there are a _few_ people in my school whom I feel do not deserve to wear that black belt on their waist, one in particular. ( the people whom I train with on this forum know EXACTLY who I am talking about) however, it is not my place to decide, nor even consider these things. The person I am referring to is a 2nd dan, a rank that I almost killed myself for and he got it without even trying. This makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up every time I think about it, all the effort I put into this for 8 years (longest missed period: 2 months due to ingroinal Hernia operation) was made a mockery to me when this person was made a 2nd dan. I tend to get passionate when I feel I have been a victim of injustice, or even witness injustice for that matter, I do understand that other's ranks are none of my business, and that these decisions are no to be criticized by me, but certain things have to be said to allow hope for a more just future. Tang Soo! AJ Dragon102@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:02:09 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Disciples! <> Yes, that was a nice myth. . . but the 1970's are over, now. - --C.J. ------------------------------ From: J Thomas Howard Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:02:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #71 Alain said: > This is sort of interesting. I've had discussions like this with Scott Shaw > as well. In his book on HKD, he says Kwanjangnim means grandmaster, and you > have to be a 7th dan. You are saying you have to be 5th dan. > > The interesting point is that Kwanjangnim is not a martial art specific word. > The owner of my Hogwan (English academy) was also addressed as Kwanjangnim by > the teachers. Basically, the owner of the school. In Hapkido, we addressed > the owner, Kim Young-jong as Kwanjangnim, and instructor Lee Jun-Kyu as > Sabomnim. No one else had these titles, no mater what their rank. [snip] > Same thing happens with Japanese arts and the term sensei. I was a sensei in > Japan, but not for martial arts. All teachers are called sensei, no matter if > you teach English, shop, science, whatever..... Far as I can tell, Americans in general just pick a definition/usage they like and run with it. :) For us, for example, Kwajangnim is indeed a title you get when you reach 7th dan, and they translate it as "master instructor," instead of the (from what I correct) precise usage of "school owner." Sabumnim is "instructor," and relates not to rank directly, but to your position in the class. A 2nd dan (for example) might be a Sabnumnim if they are the teacher for the class. On the other hand, later that same 2nd dan might be a Kyosanim ("assistant instructor") in a different class if they are helping their instructor teach some of his/her classes. Greg said: > Does anyone use the title "Kyosanim" any more? I used to be at a school > where Kyosanim meant "student instructor"(1st, 2nd, 3rd Dan) if I > remember correctly. Yep---we do, though like I said above, it has to do with the position of the person, as opposed to their rank. Other than the title of Kwajangnim, our "titles" aren't rank specific. Thomas - ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net http://www.binary.net/thomcat/ "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:25:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #73 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.