From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #74 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 6 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 074 In this issue: the_dojang: To jana and syl - from Jamaica the_dojang: Disciples the_dojang: Criticism and meaning... the_dojang: Skip Rank/fast Promos the_dojang: False Advertising the_dojang: Re: Undeserving Blackbelt's the_dojang: Re: Skipping Dans the_dojang: 1st AAU National Collegiate TKD Championships the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800+ members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:25:47 PST Subject: the_dojang: To jana and syl - from Jamaica But does it really matter on the age? I mean, aren't some people more receptive to criticism than others, regardless of age or sex? Jana ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ First thank you for your posts and for taking the time to put so much consideration and thought into them and sharing your personal feelings. Jana and Syl you are both correct and thank you very much for your posts. Harsh criticism presented in a negative factor hurts no matter what age or sex you are . It transcends all boundaries. And I hesitated posting this until you brought this up so that neither you nor Syl would feel you were being patronized by my comments as an older woman. I have found over the years that there are two ways we learn. One is "by the instructor," the other is "in spite of the instructor." In either situation if you are of strong enough character you will learn. I remember when I first started taekwondo many many years ago. It was a mixed class and one of the first individuals I met was a young girl, the age of 10. Multi-talented and very gifted in all sports. The instructor took great advantage of the beauty in her execution of certain kicks like the round house. She excelled in sparring and brought back many trophies. The instructor didn't spend any additional time with her but reaped the rewards of her natural abilities. And in the rare occasions that she "failed" him he was the first to criticize her and quite harshly. He sure did revel in her winnings. As she got into the teen years and became a bit more awkward in her movements his attitude to her became colder and in some instances even vicious. She made it to the level of blackbelt. And she knew her forms, the exact execution of them and their meanings but when she taught older students (ie ,,,the favored ones of the instructor) they sometimes would give her a very hard time. He did nothing to support her even though these individuals had not achieved her rank. Nor were they anywhere close to her understanding and comprehension and respect of martial arts. They certainly didn't have any respect for higher level belts. She eventually dropped out after many many years of loyal service. I recently attended her wedding and she is still an exceptional young woman. She, by the way, helped me when I first started. I could not execute a good round house in the beginning. This sweet young girl would watch me in class and was aware of the criticism the instructor would harshly give to me. She took me into the woman's locker room and showed me what I was doing wrong. (ie we are all students and can learn from one another). I shall never forget this young woman and the impact she had on my life. We travelled to many many tournaments together and shared so many memories. But both of us now realize that we tried our best and gave our all to a person that just didn't deserve that type of support and respect. I am still learning and really appreciate the stories you share on this forum. Respect must be reciprocal. It can't be a one-way street. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:31:11 PST Subject: the_dojang: Disciples Yes, that was a nice myth. . .but the 1970's are over, now.- --C.J. _______________________ Please and respectfully take this thought a step further and share what this means to you. I for one would greatly appreciate it. I don't' believe in living in the past but how do you perceive the present and future. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: J Thomas Howard Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:26:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Criticism and meaning... Lys (I think it was lys :/ ) mentioned "Does it really matter what age" the person is who is receiving the criticism? VERY good point. In my class, there is a woman who is a _severe_ overachiever. Highly intelligent, very talented in a number of things, but hasn't been very athletic for most of her life. As such, she is used to 1) being one of the top practitioners of whatever she is doing (drama, academics, thinking in general...) 2) picking new ideas, thoughts, and techniques up _quickly_, and understanding both their meaning and usage almost immediately. She has a hard time in class. First off, it is obvious that bodily control is very different from cerebral control. But even so, the mental side of martial arts can be difficult for people to pick up, particularly since it must be integrated with physical movement. It frustrates her amazingly----and because she is so used to getting everything Right Away, each time she hears a correction, her mind translates it as a personal criticism. She gets tears in her eyes at least once per class. The frustration of not getting it right (read: perfect) and hearing these "personal criticisms" about how she "can't seen to get it" combine to a very real emotional stress. She is almost thirty, but those criticisms, combined with her own requirements of competency, make for a harsh combination. You note the real-life quotes in the above paragraph? She and I have talked about it quite a lot, and she understands intellectually what is really happening---but her emotions aren't catching on yet. Personally, I think she is going to be one of those people who is going to go on to be one of those amazingly centered individuals that you occasionally meet---primarily because she is so grimly determined to "get it," and develop emotional control, and not give up. No, physically she isn't that talented. However, she never stops trying, and no matter how how frustrated or emotionally stressed she feels, she keeps coming to class every single time to work more. I think she is going to be up being a very good hapkidoist, and a REALLY good teacher. The most important part of it, to me, is that she isn't trying to be _perfect_ (though she'll probably try to put herself down for not getting it "perfect" even though she knows better) what she is really trying to do is 1) learn hapkido 2) learn self-control (including emotional control) And so, after all this babbling from me, what is the point, you ask? :) The point is, the reason she keeps coming back is that one day when she was really frustrated, she and I had a talk after class about what she expected to see, what I expected to see, and above all, what I considered important in terms of what we are studying. I also was kind of sneaky---I had a video of her first testing (which she watched and grimaced about, because like all first tests, your form looks terrible in retrospect) and THEN I showed her a video of her lastest test. She was kind of surprised at the difference. For many people, you can't see how far you've come. And so, while she still has a hard time in class, and gets frustrated, and has a hard time with corrections----she knows she is improving. We try to keep that firmly in her mind---and so she keeps coming back to work on it more. :) Video taping can be a very good thing. Similarly, making sure all of your students know that corrections aren't necessarily criticisms, and getting it "perfect" isn't nearly as important as getting it "better." Wow, that was long. [end babbling] Thomas - ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net http://www.binary.net/thomcat/ "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 11:34:56 PST Subject: the_dojang: Skip Rank/fast Promos Dear Mr. Terry, I am in agreement with you Ray...almost. Skipping rank is impossible ... except when recommended by an NGB president....S.E. Silz ________________________________ Well from down in the trenches here and on the first line of defense of every day life and dojangs, the skipping rank still occurs (regrettably). I know some schools that have more 3rd/4th/5th dans than colored belts. We're getting into major embarrassment situations. The "if it's for free syndrome." If it's for free than why would I want it cause anybody can get it. But my question Master Silz (and most respectfully) since I do remember that you posted you are a continuous member of the USTU/WTF for 23 consecutive years and have been very instrumental in the raising of funds for a new building for the athletes. But what would be the difference even if you do eliminate skip ranks but then just fast promote.(Refer to my post on define times and years of service). Just seems another way around the system. If someone is corrupt they usually will find a justifiable way to excuse their actions. They create their own truths to justify their actions and once a belt is awarded I have yet to see it taken away even if it didn't meet the standards and criteria set forth by the issuing organization. Once a precedent is established and set in motion than more follow in like suit. And pretty soon that is the only type of student that shows up at the door. In my life there is no such thing as a free lunch. Eventually these circumstances have a negative affect on all levels (local, regional, national, and international). Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 12:23:28 PST Subject: the_dojang: False Advertising I tend to get passionate when I feel I have been a victim of injustice, or even witness injustice for that matter, I do understand that other's ranks are none of my business, and that these decisions are no to be criticized by me, but certain things have to be said to allow hope for a more just future.Tang Soo!AJ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I think most of us get so passionate because we do care so very much about martial arts and our fellow martial artists. Regarding other people's ranks. To some extent I would agree that they should not be our concern. To the extent that they do not hamper our own development nor do they become something of an obession with us. However I do think on a different level that we do have the right and owe it to ourselves to question in a respectful manner. I haven't met one person on this forum that doesn't follow that criteria. For me it has always been rather a question of false advertising. When I first signed up at this one school many years ago I was provided information by which I made my decision to join the school and to invest a great deal of my time,energy, and money in the school based on the information (written and unwritten) that I was given. Most of which was respect, timelines, and guidelines, written and unwritten protocols. I followed the rules and assumed the rules applied to all. I later found out that they didn't. Now whether it's in the martial arts or at work for a company or corporation, or say the school we send our children to; I have been handed a wide variety of excuses for variances in practices. One of the old time sayings is "life's not fair." Well perhaps it would be if people stopped to think what they were doing and the consequences of their actions on others. I did question a few things once in awhile that I didn't understand and at one point I made the decision to leave. All I sought was a better understanding of why things happened not that they were happening. At that time there weren't too many other places to train but I felt that my own dignity was worth more to me than what was happening. I didn't seek favors, I just wanted to understand and if there was a reasonable explanation for the exception to the rule I could certainly handle it. But when the exception to the rules becomes the norm well then I understood very clearly that it was not mine to change but that I could indeed change my own situation. And I did. I left. And I have never regretted my decision. I have found along the way instructors that still held their standards to the max. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 17:34:50 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Undeserving Blackbelt's Aaron J Woodburn wrote: << all the effort I put into this for 8 years (longest missed period: 2 months due to ingroinal Hernia operation) was made a mockery to me when this person was made a 2nd dan. >> Not so, Aaron -- HIS belt was a mockery. YOUR belt was hard-won. Many times we watch these things happen and feel angry or badly used; but in reality, the loser is the one who got something without earning it. Do you really think other people can't tell who put in the hard work to learn and earn his rank? It will show in everything you do. Good luck, Sally CBAUGHN@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 17:34:40 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Skipping Dans S.E.Silz wrote: << I am in agreement with you Ray...almost. Skipping rank is impossible ... except when recommended by an NGB president.... ...According to an extremely reliable source: Due to the fact that rampant abuse of the skip dan process was taking place, its availability has been severely restricted by the WTF/Kukkiwon for the past several years. Currently, an NGB President such as that of the USTU, the Korea Taekwondo Association, or the German Taekwondo Bund, must sign the application as the "recommender," in lieu of merely any higher ranking dan holder signing. Said NGB President should review the applicant's resume, and find good cause for the "skipping" of rank. >> Granted, I don’t know the background info, but... In 1997, a 3rd dan from a school in Dayton, OH, was skipped to 5th dan by a GM in Atlanta (or so the new 5th dan publicly said). Because the school was such a stickler for getting KKW certification, we were led to believe this was done under USTU/KKW auspices. So far as outside observers could tell, there was no overwhelming reason for skipping rank in this instance. In fact, just the week before going to Atlanta, the "skippee" had been struggling with his forms up to 3rd dan and could not get thru the 4th dan requirement. (I mention this because the particular school is one of those “traditional” schools that places great emphasis on forms rather than sparring.) As I said, I don’t know background details, but the public details indicate that there was something relatively shaky going on with this particular promotion. Sally CBAUGHN@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:11:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: 1st AAU National Collegiate TKD Championships The First AAU National Collegiate Taekwondo Championships Where: The French American International School, 151 Oak St., San Francisco, CA 94117 When: Sun, March 14, 1999 Hosts: Golden Gate University and the Pacific Association of the AAU Sanctioned: AAU Tourny director: Prof. Bill Dewart Check-in: 8:00-9:00 AM Poomse: 9:15AM - Noon Kyoroogi: 12:30 - 5:00 PM Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:12:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #74 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! 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