From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #76 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 8 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 076 In this issue: the_dojang: Dedicated Students the_dojang: RE: Rank the_dojang: Criticism the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #68 fights outside the dojang... Turni ng the other cheek... the_dojang: RE: dirty not-so-old men the_dojang: Criticism... the_dojang: Balance and Flexibility the_dojang: Exceptional Students/Exceptional Criticisim the_dojang: RE: young (was female) athletes/syl the_dojang: Rank the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800+ members strong! 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Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:28:35 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Dedicated Students >For all of the instructors out there, I was wondering what exactly stands out the most to you as an example of a truly dedicated student?< I don't look at just the student who comes in 5-7 days a week as dedicated but the student who comes in 2-3 times a week and during the off days takes an extra 5 minutes from their day to practice a form or stretching or techniques. >Do you find that you tend to take those students "under your wing" a little more than others, due to the fact that you believe in their dedication?< It is my opinoin that instructors, conscience or unconsciencly, tend to take a "shine" to student who they percieve as being dedicated. >What are a few of your pet peeves as far as examples of what not to do in class?< I guess my biggest pet peeve is saying yeah or ok or sure or nah to the instructor. Yes sir/m'am, no sir/m'am or beginning a question with sir/m'am. There must be some respect that is maintained in the dojang even if the person who you are teaching is your mother. (I have trained my mom and she does address me as sir within the dojang.) Some things I would caution against are yawning or adjusting yourself while the instructor is trying to explain something. Talking about everything, but the techniques you are suppose to be doing, with your partner. Give your instructor 100% and he or she should return it two fold back to you. Jeremy ------------------------------ From: Greg Giddins Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:49:41 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Rank >kwan rank versus kukkiwon, etc....... >Bottom line - what does it matter? What does rank establish except where you >stand in class? Yes, there are some social issues I am glossing over, but >bottom line - >if you are confident in your abilities and yourself, what does it matter? For the most part, this is an absolutely correct standpoint. The only exception to this rule is when a student is in an organization that requires certain ranks for certain tasks. i.e. 3rd Dan for teaching, 4th Dan for holding political positions or founding a school, etc. For people trying to establish themselves in an organization "rank" becomes a bigger deal. And this is usually where (to tie in the other thread) skip dans and 3 month dan promotions come in to play. And also where bad feelings start to really get stirred. You are *all* right in that a 4th dan who has only been practicing for 6 years knows he may be undeserving of his rank, and is no one to be envied, and you shouldn't waste your time concerning yourself about it; but at the same time, that 4th dan could be making the decisions that affect YOUR SCHOOL. That 4th dan could be making decisions that affect your entire reigon. That 4th dan may be promoting 50 3rd dan flunkies and before you know it your reigon/organization is full of political dan holders and not martial artists. Most of us have an organization or two filed away in the "bad martial artists" category. Wouldn't it be a shame if the one you were in started down that road? Greg Giddins ggiddins@ossinc.net If you are living like there is no God, you'd better be right. ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 08:32:22 PST Subject: the_dojang: Criticism I've heard it said, and seen many examples in my life (however short :) that the people who receive criticism are the ones that would benefit from it the most. Hmm, let me try to clarify that. Ok, say that there's two good artists. One has exceptionally good talent and the other is good, but doesn't show as much potential. I've seen times where the exceptionally good belt will receive more criticism, not because he/she stinks, but because he/she's potential is higher and they would profit more from the criticism. Jana - --------------------------------------------------- Hi and since you asked for feedback here is mine. Yep a sore spot with me. I do know many schools (and non M.A.) schools that practice this method of teaching. I don't support it at all and maybe because I've been on the receiving end of this type of practice more than one time in my life. I do know some individuals can benefit from a push or a shove here and there and that's okay, but this can backfire. I've had instructors do the harsh number on me because "they knew I had so much talent." But I believe there is a very, very fine line between gently encouraging somebody and making an example of them, using them and sometimes being just mean. Having fun at the expense of someone else. I don't mind high expectations. I already have them of myself. And that's one of the problems. I already many times was pushing myself to the max by the time I arrived at class. So when I got to class I was borderline tapping out. Extra pushes and shoves were not pushing me forward they were pushing me over the edge into total exhaustion and a feeling of non-accomplishment. What some of the instructors fail to realize is that in their quest for this magical student/performer that will make them look good, they see students,"As they want to see them," not "as they really are." They wanted me to be better than I was, but it was not to help me as an individual, it was for their own glorification and selfishness. There were times at more than one testing where I was asked to do way more than others. Okay, I can take some of that but enough is enough. And then because I'm not a quitter they would make me attempt to break multiple boards that they didn't even ask a 6' 5" 240 lb man to break. I'm 5' 4" and 110 lbs. Hmmmm. And when they started smiling and snickering that made it even worse. Helping me? I think not. All of a sudden the excuse of just wanting to see me be my best didn't cut it anymore. It angered me. It humiliated me. But they also carried this into other arenas where some students (not just myself) had to do manuals and build holding machines and develop handouts because we knew how, or we were so talented and they let other people off the hook without doing anything. And if we didn't comply we were criticized. It wasn't that others were less capable. They were slackers. They were the ones that needed the push push, shove shove. So overall I think if you have a very caring instructor some of this is okay. But there has got to be a limit on these expectations. Come to think of it, nobody ever asked me what I wanted. It was always imposed upon me. My fault. I also let it happen. I don't anymore. Just sorry it took me so long to catch on but when you place your trust in someone we don't always use critical thinking. I think this type of criticism actually made me retreat and backoff instead of helping me accelerate and develop my skills. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:06:28 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #68 fights outside the dojang... Turni ng the other cheek... > From: "Sara" > Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 12:37:27 PST > Subject: the_dojang: fights outside of the dojang > > 1) learning a martial art should build in you respect and humility > 2) the first thing to do is avoid a fight, not start one or provoke one > or continue one > 3) physical control is important--self-control is more important > > To put those three together, he gave an example of a young third degree > black belt who was skinny and quiet. He was getting pushed around a > parking lot by another guy (typical high school harassment garbage that > escalated to violence), and as he looked up after being painfully shoved > into the side mirror of a car, he *knew* he could place a side kick in > the guy's chest and hurt him, even kill him if he wanted; Sorry I'm so slow to respond to this one, but I've been mulling it over for a few days. If I read the story right, the young man was in no real danger, and realized it. Now obviously a person may have to decide to fight to protect themselves or a loved one ( or a weaker one ), but that's responding to the immediate situation. Question: When does a person have the responsibility to respond physically in order to protect the _next_ person the bully may attack? ( and by extension, if it ever _is_ your responsibility, are you remiss if you don't? not legally... socially and morally ) If you put a side-kick in the bully's ribs, will it make him think twice about extorting lunch money from the class nerd with the slide rule? ( OK now, I can say that. I was one. ) I'm not advocating anything here, least of all any form of vigilantism, just want to know your thoughts. Kerry kerry.atchinson@wichita.boeing.com ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:15:43 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: dirty not-so-old men > From: "Perry Seto" > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:10:05 -0800 > Subject: the_dojang: old fogies > > Kerry, > > You're very welcome. > > I do have to say that I very much resent your comment regarding old fogies > and such. I am NOT a dirty old man. Dirty middle aged man, maybe, but > NOT > a dirty OLD man. :-))) > > And yes .... that was a great post Syl. > > - -Perry- > pseto@aptl.com > > My sincerest apologies! ( deep, back-cracking bow ) ;-) However, as I have daughters aged 21 and 17 I will now have to maintain a heightened sense of awareness since you profess middle rather than old age. ;-) Kerry Chuckling 1st Gup TKD kerry.atchinson@wichita.boeing.com ------------------------------ From: J Thomas Howard Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:46:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Criticism... Jana said: [snip] >Ok, say that there's two good artists. One has exceptionally good talent >and the other is good, but doesn't show as much potential. I've seen >times where the exceptionally good belt will receive more criticism, not >because he/she stinks, but because he/she's potential is higher and they >would profit more from the criticism. [snip] >Anyone who thinks that they even remotely grasp what point I'm trying to >make is welcome to comment and clarify for me (and you should also get a >medal, understanding me is no easy task :) It makes sense, if you think about it. People of lower rank with less experience are the ones that teachers are actually able to criticize LESS, rather than more. When they are just starting a new technique, lower belts are working hard on simply managing the gross body movements---attempting to criticize the fact that their foot is 2 degrees out of alignment is something far beyond what they are able to manage to correct at that time. It isn't till they have a basic grasp of the technique and its application that requiring further precision from them is even possible. Students who pick things up quickly tend to hear MORE criticism, but it is of a different type. New students get simple, straightforward "move the leg in this direction" sorts of criticism. Students who have the basics down get comments like "don't duck your head, don't 'pop' your hands as you set up for the kick," and advanced students get comments like "put more emotion into it" and "cock your eyebrow to the left another millimeter for maximum effect." Well, sort of. You get the idea. :) For low belts, you simply can't say things like that----at their level, they not only aren't capable of that sort of precision, they'll probably have NO idea of what you mean, because they don't understand the principles and mechanics of the technique. How's that, Jana? :) Thomas - ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net http://www.binary.net/thomcat/ "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 09:49:19 PST Subject: the_dojang: Balance and Flexibility Hi gang, Speaking of balance and flexibility .... does anyone have any ideas onspecific stretches for the psoas muscles as my hips can tend to tighten up when I do a turning kick (roundhouse) .... any thoughts , suggestions are greatly appreciated ....Thanks James ________________________ Hi back at ya.. Lots of exercises but have you (do you need) to be checked out by like a chiropractor/p.t. for maybe overly tight muscles also in your gluts, quads, hamstrings and maybe some joint fixation problems. Not trying to go into overkill here just didn't know where you were at. Reason some simple exercises didn't always help me is because of other m.a. injuries and/or physical situations resulting from things like my job which were really causing the problem. I know I'd think the problem was where the pain or tightness was only to find out instead of my hips it was my spine etc. So when I turned or attempted to rotate I was severely restricted. Once the spinal injuries were corrected my rotation and overall mobility increased. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Greg Giddins Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:17:11 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Exceptional Students/Exceptional Criticisim >Ok, say that there's two good artists. One has exceptionally good talent >and the other is good, but doesn't show as much potential. I've seen >times where the exceptionally good belt will receive more criticism, not >because he/she stinks, but because he/she's potential is higher and they >would profit more from the criticism. I think the only way this kind of "singling out" could be pulled off without creating bad feelings on the part of the exceptional student is if equal amounts of "extra praise" accompanied the "extra criticisim". This, of course, then tends to lead to bad feelings on the part of the other student who isn't getting as much attention (good or bad) as the "star". Preferential treatment (criticisim or no) is a dangerous habit to get in to on the part of an instructor. Greg Giddins ggiddins@ossinc.net If you are living like there is no God, you'd better be right. ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:02:46 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: young (was female) athletes/syl Something "syl" mentioned brought to mind that the martial arts "should" help one become a better person. Not to compare you with someone else. For me it is not a matter of who can do what better, faster, stronger, etc. It is a journey to know yourself, your own limitations and your capabilities. We strive to become better by pushing beyond our limitations, but sometimes the realization of what you can NOT do can be as important as what you CAN do! Mark.Lasich@alcoa.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - -------------------- Mark D. Lasich Email: Mark.Lasich@alcoa.com Phone: (724) 337-5702 Fax: (724) 337-2394 *** I asked for everything so I could enjoy life. Instead, He gave me life so I could enjoy everything. - Unknown author. *** ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 12:46:04 PST Subject: the_dojang: Rank Follow your own conscience and moral codes regarding promotion and rank. R. Sweet ______________________________ That's the problem. It's not the student's conscience and moral codes that's the typically the problem :) It's when you are a student and have to depend on the conscience and moral codes of the instructor(s) and then find out there aren't any and then you struggle on to keep your own dignity until one day you just finally decide to quit or move on. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:00:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #76 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. 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