From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #79 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 9 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 079 In this issue: the_dojang: Jumping Through Hoops/Jamaica the_dojang: Re: KMA history/ Mr. Carsten Jorgensen the_dojang: RE: "Worthy or not?" the_dojang: what is he doing to my belt????? the_dojang: OUCH the_dojang: homeschooling and the MAs the_dojang: Patches, trim and insignias the_dojang: Time, the '70's, etc. the_dojang: Sandwich criticism the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800+ members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:11:06 PST Subject: the_dojang: Jumping Through Hoops/Jamaica I guess I could go on and on (I usually do), but the real thing here is probably the degree and consistency of the picking on certain students.But remember, although we may have all met the written requirements for a certain rank, the martial arts is about MUCH more than just meetingthe physical requirements. It is a journey of growth in more than just the physical requirements, which are easily measured, easily seen. Growth of the *person* is, perhaps, a bit more difficult to chart, but equally (maybe more) as important along the journey! As the physical requirements need an instructor to help guide you, the mental/complete person growth also needs examples, a mentor, and yes, perhaps even an instructor to help bring out the best in you! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Agree with you, actually. Thanks for continuing the discussion and some clarification. The jumping through hoops comments meant there wasn't a true mentor relationship nor a desire to bring out the best in students. The instructor would command individuals to do things (not train or seek to make better or advise) but command. If you did not perform to expectations you received the criticism. If you did not bring home the expected trophies and medals you received harsh criticism and were told you failed. You were even embarrassed in front of the class. If you asked (no begged) for assistance on learning how to do something better, like say breaking boards or executing a roundhouse you were told you were not trying hard enough. You weren't shown a way to improve. You weren't shown how to execute your techniques better. You weren't taught anything. Just try harder. You can do it. You've got talent. Bring home the trophies. And seriously if you didn't you were harshly reminded that you (meaning the student) were the one that failed, not any accountability by the instructor(s). And if someone more naturally gifted and talented came along you were pushed on the sidelines and they were exalted (for awhile). I really do hope that I am presenting a worse case scenario because it would disappoint me greatly if there were too many other schools that taught as this one.And once again thanks for continuing the discussion and keeping things in balance. It's hard to be completely removed and totally objective on issues that have touched me personally expecially in email format for forums. I just wanted to share another side to what I've experienced. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Carsten Jorgensen Date: 8 Feb 99 22:39:32 MET Subject: the_dojang: Re: KMA history/ Mr. Carsten Jorgensen Ray wrote: >Good letter, but I remain unconvinced, at least on parts of the claims. But >then who cares if you convince me... :) Darn it, I thought that if I wrote this letter I'd never have to write another letter on HRD... what parts didn't convince you? ;-) I wrote about Bob D: >> Unfortunately the guy don't know much about Korean Martial Arts history. I >> hope everybody who are interested in KMA history/Hwarang Do history would take >> a look at my letter about his page: www.ihi.ku.dk/~carstenj/soh.htm >> >Mr. Jorgensen, if you have carefully read my post you would had noticed >that I don't stand by Mr. Bob Duggan opinion, I just quoted some of >these ideas and gave his web site address to anyone who might be >interested in. Therefore I do not understand why you've been so >unopolite in your reply. Hi Eduardo (and it's Carsten) - sorry if I sounded rude, just that I've now been writing e-mails about HRD for more than 4 years. I think my very first letter in English was to a friend of mine who said he was tired of politics in HRD, I replied "there's politics in HRD?" Anyway, if you post the address to, and quote from a homepage containing false information (for instance "Dr. Lee's brother teaching HKD in America") then I think I have plenty reason to post the address of my own letter? >I've just read your post and I haven't seen anything about KMA history, >only about HRD and your feelings to Mr. Bob Duggan. There is no >evidence, nor proven fact, that would change my opinion and believe that >HRD is a 2000 year martial art. If there isn't any good evidence this >discussion would ended as your word against Mr. Duggan one. The point of my letter was not to write about KMA history (I'm writing one about modern HRD history right now) but just to show some of the places where the homepage is wrong. What did you think about HRD after reading his page? As you probably know often it's a problem to give concrete evidence when we're talkning about Korea - very few really old documents excists. However I do know a whole lot more HRD history than Bob does, but let's see when you start asking questions. I'm sure Ray can pick out something too :-) BTW, did you see any evidence on his page? >There are some facts that bother me: Go for it! That's why I wrote the letter. >- - How come a 2000 year old martial art have only one Supreme Master, who >has teached every other GM? Who is going to be the next SM when Joo Bang >Lee passed away? His son? Has he teached the others GM too? HRD was founded in 1960 after Dr. Lee and his older brother had trained as the only students of the monk Suam Dosa since 1942. The monk always said that the techniques had been handed down to him through 57 generations since the Silla Hwarang warriors. So when Dr. Lee named his style he called it Hwa Rang Do, in honor of Suam Dosa, and because he wanted the students to follow the Hwarang spirit and philosophy. This was not only the first time a martial art was called Hwarang Do but also the very first time the Hwarang organization was ever used in connection with unarmed martial arts. That's why there is only one "Supreme Grandmaster" of HRD. When you train martial ART there is one leader and when you train SPORT there are many leaders, no? Anyway, what kind of evidence could there possible be that what the monk taught them is the same MA the Silla Hwarang practiced? I don't know who'll be the next SGM (Korean title is Doju-Nim), I doubt he's going to ask me for advice :-) And yes, Dr. Lee has taught many other people who now are GM's that's why he's the "supreme" GM.... One of them is in New Jersey (GM Ki Nam Yum). >- - HKD, KSW and HRD has some many similar techniques, do you really >belive in these kind of "coincidence"? or you think everyone else has >copied GM Lee techniques? Isn't Korea a small country for such >conicidence? All systems have similar techniques, they just do them differently (Thai Boxing and Karate both use a roundhouse kick but it's performed and used differently). HRD and other Korean styles have sets of techniques that are organized the same way, but perfomed and used differently. Apart from that there are huge differences alone between individual HKD styles, no? >- - There are many GM who claimed there arts to be 2000 year old >(specially the Korean), are they all liers but GM Lee? I don't know, who says their art is 2000 years old? BTW, it has never been a secret that Dr. Lee also trained other MA's, you can, for instance, have a look at www.hwarangdo.com or the FAQ. >Unlike you I do respect any beliefs, and I don't to change yours, but if >you do wnat to change mine would have to do better than this. Hmmm, I don't think you know me very well? Carsten Jorgensen Copenhagen, Denmark - ---------------- Re: kyosa, bu sabum, sabum, bu kwanja, kwangja? >Does anyone use the title "Kyosanim" any more? I used to be at a school >where Kyosanim meant "student instructor"(1st, 2nd, 3rd Dan) if I remember >correctly. In Hwarang Do the title goes according to your position, for instance a 1-3 dan, who is not an instructor is simply "Yudan ja" or black belt. Teaching titles goes: Instructor titles: 1st dan:Jokyo-Nim (Assistant Instructor) 2nd dan: Kyosa-Nim (instructor) 3rd dan: Sabum-Nim (Instructor) 4th dan: Sabum-Nim (or Susuk Sabum-Nim, Head Instructor, if there are more Sabum's) Master titles: 5th dan: Sabum-Nim (or Kwanjang-Nim if having own school) 6th dan: Kwanjang-Nim (or Dosa-Nim, Way Teacher) 7th dan:Kwangjang-Nim (Dosa-Nim or Susuk Kwanjang-Nim - Head Master - if more Kwanjang's at the same school) Grandmaster titles: 8th dan: Chong Kwanjang-Nim (or Kuksa-Nim - National Teacher - if chief GM for a country, fx GM Yum in New York is Kuksa-Nim because he was chief master for the Philippines) 9th dan: Kuksa-Nim (or Kukson-Nim - "National Immortal" a Silla Hwarang rank) 10th dan: Taesa (Great Teacher) or Dojoo-Nim (Way Owner) Carsten Jorgensen hwarangdo@usa.net ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ From: Greg Giddins Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:34:47 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: "Worthy or not?" >Second question: How do you determine whether someone is "worthy" of >promotion to the next level? Oooh. Good one. I think, actually, I flip it around. After the student reaches their "time in belt/classes attended" number to make them *eligable* to test they should be put through a "pre test" in class to see if they know the material for their belt level. Then, if they know what has been predetermined for them to know for promotion (forms, combinations, sef defense, etc.) during their test, I determine if they're "unworthy" to be promoted. I had posted earlier that I judge martial artist by 1) Physical Ability 2) Demeanor and 3) knowlege of art, in that order, well, I test them the same way. And if a person excels in one category that can make up for being light in another. If their physical skills are lacking, but they are very knowlegable of history, ettiquette, and are showing a great attitude in class every day they can overcome the physical shortfall. Sounds kinda vague, but teaching and testing is a very subjective business, no? One thing that is intolerable: disrespect, and laziness. If they don't try they don't get promoted. Another big key: keeping up with their lower belt forms. I judge higher belts much more harshly on their basic forms than their advanced ones. They should be improving those basic forms more with every belt level, and it should be obvious. Greg Giddins ggiddins@ossinc.net If you are living like there is no God, you'd better be right. ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:57:39 EST Subject: the_dojang: what is he doing to my belt????? >>the panic set in. "What is he doing?", I thought. He held the belt up. He started cutting. "What is he doing to "my" black belt?!!!" "He= =92s cutting the belt in half!!!" "Why is he cutting the black belt in half?!!= !" "What is he doing to "my" belt?!!!" That thought kept running through my mind. I was in shock. Dr. Min soon had two sections of a black belt in his hand. I was stil= l dumbfounded when he handed me the longer section and said, "Tie it." I started to double wrap it around my waist as I had with all of my other belts. He stopped me and said, "No. Just tie it." I still was clueless. He finally took the belt from me, reached behind me with it, pulled it to the front and started tying it for me. I finally understood. I finished tying the belt. Dr. Min looked at it, and me, and said "Th= at =92s the new style." So=85=85 I received the first single wrap black belt ever presented at= Cal. And I wear it proudly to this day.<<< Perry, What I think of the story - its good. The reader is sucked in. We can't really predict the outcome and we feel your panic! Now the story? What I find interesting is "how on Earth did you remain ca= lm and not make an ass of yourself?" good job on that one. Although I think= I'd be sooo shocked I probably couldn't speak. thanks for the story:-) Dawne ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:11:20 EST Subject: the_dojang: OUCH Well folks I believe I am the newest HKD student on this list. Last night was my second class and all I can say is "OUCH". I love training with my GM, the class is small, I get lots of attention and its fun but... OUCH! I feel great about my grasp of the first 6 wrist grabs (pun intended). I feel powerful. I want to do them over and over. I love working with an advanced student b/c I can flip him b/c he flips/rolls really well and won't be hurt. I feel like I really can understand the technique and form better b/c I don't have to stop it, rather I continue with the full motion till he's on the floor. Unfortunately, I have two small problems. First, there is this side roll that's been haunting me. I do it several times the "wrong" way. In this small class there is plenty of time to explain how it *felt* and where it hurts. This allows GM to tell me immediately what he observed and the next two or three come out really well. Then I get a bit messed up again. Is there anything I can do to get beyond this? They say I go more toward the forward roll rather than the side. Secondly, I have a hard time working with other women. I'm still getting used to the fact that its ok to hurt your partner. [That is, they feel a small quick feeling of discomfort NOT that they are on the floor crying.] Its easier for me to work with men b/c I guess I feel I need to protect myself from men on the street rather than female strangers. Also, I probably have some socialized belief that "men can take it more". I thought I was enlightened :( What can I do about this? Thank you, Dawne ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:13:02 EST Subject: the_dojang: homeschooling and the MAs Will anyone who homeschools their child(ren) and uses the MAs for the gym component and socilization skills please contact me privately? It may be NECESSARY for me to homeschool my 6 year old blue belt. Thank you, Dawne No1IDIC@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Greg Giddins Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:35:39 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Patches, trim and insignias Steve wrote: Because stripes on one's black belt, "Assistant Instructor's Club" patches on one's sleeve, or special "rank trim" on one's dobok are all pointless ways to advertise something that warrants no advertising. ===================================================== Gosh, there are alot of martial artisits out there with those patches, stripes and trim. And alot of martial artists who work much harder in class in order to someday get them. That sounds like some terrible advice. By saying this you have just demeaned the thousands of martial artists who wear symbols of their achievemnt on their UNIFORM. And, considering the para-military aspect of the martial (yes, MARTIAL) arts, these types of insignias are part of the fundamental structure of advancement, rank and achievement. A corporal wears his rank on his sleeve, a general wears his stars on his uniform. They EARNED them. Just like the martial artists wearing them EARNED them. Pointless? To call hard earned symbols of achievement "pointless" is a ridiculous statement. If it helps one student try a little harder in class, then that patch is worth every penny, every minute spent in discussion and certainly worth displaying. You don't like wearing patches, trim and insignias? Fine. But to tell others that it is pointless for them to do so? That's a bit too far. Greg Giddins ggiddins@ossinc.net If you are living like there is no God, you'd better be right. ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:04:12 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Time, the '70's, etc. <<>> _______________________ <> Whew. I knew this wise-ass comment would bite me in the butt. . . Originally, I made this comment in response to a fellow poster's suggestion that before the "popular era" of martial arts (colored belts, nifty safety equipment, high monthly dues at state-of-the-art schools, etc.), the term "disciple" really referred to a _truly_ dedicated individual who had taken some sort of asthetic vow, and followed his/her teacher without question. This, for some silly reason, reminded me of the campy 1970's "kung fu" t.v. series, with the scene of "grasshopper" at the temple. . .and just reminded me of how much of our collective perceptions of the martial arts are based on idealized fiction & myth. :-! -hmmm. . . But since you hinted at some depth, I'm with you--it doesn't help to live in the past. Keeping the past in mind however, can help determine how we shape the future. If we are mindful of the sucesses and failings of ourselves & others, we can become more mindful (after much analytical picking & critical thought, of course) of how to apply the lessons of others to our own lives. We can also learn to discern for ourselves which "successes" are really failures (like he guy/gal who drives a flashy car & lives in a house on the hill as a result of fleecing students & leading them on about "secrets" s/he never plans to disclose, or a teacher who expects your all, but remains emotionally distant), and vice versa (like the "little guy/gal" who teaches for practically nothing out of a "garage studio" and ends up losing money--but keeps on going out of the sheer love of it all). We are never completely in control of the present or future, other people and environmental factors will always pose a possible influence of unpredictable degree. But we generally control most of the factors that deal with our mental and physical states. We don't get to the pinnacle because the teacher pointed to it--we get there because _we_ walked (or crawled, in some cases) ourselves. While that pointing finger may have helped us notice the mountain the first place, nobody carried us up there. Everyone's trip is different. some fall. Some are pushed! Some have to pull themselves up to begin with! Some turn and go in the opposite direction of the finger--and still find interesting, useful things. Wherever they go, they leave the past behind, but also carry small bits of it into the future. The present? That's our actual conscious time. I'd say the here-and-now, but --d'oh!!-- it, too, has passed. - --C.J. ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 12:13:09 PST Subject: the_dojang: Sandwich criticism The currently acceptable method is to gently, but calmly let them know what they are doing that needs to be corrected and why. Then let it go. Don't mix compliments and criticisms. Consider the whole teenage self-esteem thread - they will always be looking for the hammer to fall, even when you are genuinely pleased with their performance. Ronda Sweet ________________________________ Sounds like some of the One Minute Manager teachings??? It's been awhile since I reviewed those books but if not, it is similar. I believe they also make another valid point. That if you do see something that needs to be corrected that you should do it immediately or within the first few moments you see it. Otherwise people have a tendency to forget what exactly they are being corrected for if too much time lapses. Most people need to relate it to a particular situation otherwise it won't make any sense and the situation will be more likely to occur again. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:49:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #79 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.