From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #84 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thurs, 11 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 084 In this issue: the_dojang: Sun Do Sul? the_dojang: Mulan the_dojang: Confusion/Clarification the_dojang: Relocating: Some compassion for Stacy the_dojang: 3 steps. O.K. which do you want!! the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #83 the_dojang: Love me...love my belts the_dojang: Berkeley the_dojang: Perseverence the_dojang: Choi & Takeda--what we don't know. . . the_dojang: Trophies the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rhall@CARBON.CUDENVER.EDU (Reed Hall) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:37:34 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Sun Do Sul? Just stumbled upon a nearby school that goes by the name of "Sun Do Sul." Peeeked in the window (they were closed at the time) and saw TKD and HKD advertised, among other things, and reference was made to a World Sun Do Sul association/federation. I'm unfamiliar with the name, style, association, etc. A quick web search has so far turned up nothing. Just curious as to whether anyone on this forum has any info on 'em? Thanks, Reed ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:03:27 PST Subject: the_dojang: Mulan Jamaica,Read your post on Joanne of Arc. You forgot about another cross-dresser ..... Hua Mulan. :-)) As you know, her story is a well known Chinese legend. BTW ... have you watched the movie yet? Perry Seto - ------------------------ Thanks for the reminder :) How could I forget... sitting on the countertop just waiting for me. And I now know there's much more to the history of Mulan than I ever thought. Hmmm perhaps you should share some of that. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:07:17 PST Subject: the_dojang: Confusion/Clarification Looks like you and I was confuuuuusssed, Jamaica .... the Golden Seniors arefrom 35(?) to 40. The Executive Seniors are for those of us who are lucky enough to be 41 or older. :-)) Guess we had it the other way around. Perry Seto. _____________________________ hahahah Definitely wouldn't be the first time I was confused. Back to the drawing board and thanks for the clarification... Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: John Hancock Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:08:40 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Relocating: Some compassion for Stacy Stacy....I have been where you are now....exactly. How to tell the few students you have you will be leaving and moving on...hence...they will no longer have an instructor. Stacy....there is absolutely no good way to do this. All options suck for one reason or another....and the students do have a right to be upset, frustrated and mad. They WILL be disappointed and feel let down....some more so than others....and they may vent their frustrations at you. Bear it...it is your burden. Don't take anything they say that's negative harshly upon yourself. They are hurting too....but remember...you are the teacher...and have to be the model of behavior....so accept what comes and do so with dignity and grace and true humility, just remember....they don't really hate you...they are just hurt. I'd say...wait to tell them a week before you move...so you definitely know you are going and don't panic anyone before that unless it leaks out. If it does....own up to it immediately and apologize for not being able to remain their teacher. Offer to make introductions for them to other schools and teachers and give them your best wishes. This is the BEST way to handle it. Always be friendly to them if they call you in the future or you meet again. Do your best for them as a teacher....and you have no reason to feel ashamed. John Hancock ------------------------------ From: "Alexander, Stephen" Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:09:48 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: 3 steps. O.K. which do you want!! 3 Steps Thanks for the replies on 3 steps to date. They are *exactly* what I was looking for. Keep them coming!! Mike from New Zealand, or anyone else, if you want to e-mail me privately the ones you do at your club, feel free if you wish to take it off the list. alexanders@nexfor.com Misquoted I used to have my quote attributed to Sun Tzu until someone e-mailed me privately and told me it was Gichin Funakoshi. I thought I had originally read it in "Art of War" and that Gichin was just quoting Sun Tzu. Seeing that I am almost ready for the "Old Geezer" ;-> division I thought maybe it was just my mind playing tricks, and I had forgotten where I read it and put in Sun Tzu by mistake.. So. I guess they both said it. Although Gichin was quoting. The following is how my quote will now appear. OK ?? :) Steve Alexander To win 100 victories in 100 battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill. Sun Tzu / Gichin Funakoshi take your pick.....! ------------------------------ From: John Hancock Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:12:18 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #83 > iSoooooo ..... I guess we need a new name for the "Executive Seniors". :-)) > > - -Perry- > pseto@aptl.com How about... "Chronologically Abundant Seniors" (smirk, smirk, smirk) John Hancock ------------------------------ From: John Hancock Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:16:39 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Love me...love my belts They are like my personal treasures in my personal jewelry box. I'm just plain proud of them, of each and every belt and each and every memory. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Here! Here! I concur. I'm proud of every one of the belts I earned...and I'm so glad I have them all....especially sense I now need several of them tied together just to get around the "mastery" of my belly. (Snort, snicker, smirk!) John Hancock ------------------------------ From: "Perry Seto" Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:39:49 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Berkeley Dakin wrote: Thanks for the information on Berkeley's program Perry. I'm also at a university (Indiana University Bloomington). We have an enrollment of about 1,000 students each semester (out of 30,000 in the entire university) in martial arts classes. There are also clubs (TKD, HKD, taijiquan, aikido, fencing, jujutsu, judo, shotokan karate) which charge no more than $35 per semester (testing fees to black belt are about $300 total, including all lower rank tests). $5 of the club fee goes to insurance, $5 to the club and the rest to the instructor. How does that $85 charge breakdown at Berkeley? And does any of that $2 million grant the Martial Arts program there received a few years back go to supporting classes or materials, or is it all earmarked for the book series? Lastly, I'm really curious about those single wrap belts. Does anyone else use them? If not, what was the rationale behind them? Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu **************************************************************************** *********************************************** Dakin, Thanks for your response. Sorry it took me a couple of days to answer you back, I've been real busy. I love your campus. I was there once .... many, many moons ago ... for a weeklong summer seminar. Our membership tends to hover around the 800 mark - we've got wu shu, tai chi, karate, tkd, hkd and judo. I believe, don't hold me to this, that the university takes about half of each student's fee to take care of the facility. The rest goes into an "account" for the martial arts program (actually for each individual club I think) that is controlled by the university . To access these funds, one has to go through an "approval" process for each request. The number of "approvers" needed is dependent on the dollars requested as well as the purpose. None of the money is allocated for insurance - each student has to carry private insurance (usually through their parents) or has to join the USTU for its insurance. The instructors do not directly receive any of the funds. This is not to say that they do not derive any benefit from these funds. Travel expenses for them and other team members generally come from these pools. This is also how we purchase any equipment, etc. that we may need. As far as the endowment from the Korean government goes, it was for $1,000,000 not $2,000,000 ... though we would have loved $2,000,000. We still need to, as a program, raise $1,500,000 on our own over the next ten years to "match" their contribution - originally it was $1,000,000 in three years (maybe 5), but that proved to be too short of a time frame for us. As far as I know, we haven't received the money from Korea yet, though they are still committed to it. Sooooo ...... if you have any great ideas, we'd appreciate them. The funds will be used for variying purposes within the martial arts program ...... I think we were batting around the idea of using the money to remodel an old facility for UCMAP's exclusive use. In any case, the funds are to assure that we have an "endowed chair" (whatever that means) at Cal. Bottom line - it's to assure the survival of the program after Dr. Min's emminent retirement. In regards to the cost of promoting .... I never figured it out. We charge $25 per promotional test up to and including 1st kup. 1st Dan is $100. 2nd, I think, is $150 or $200. My 3rd Dan test just cost me $250. I had a couple of friends take their 5th and it cost them $350. So, I guess that means it's $300 for 4th Dan. Don't know about anything above that ... we haven't had anyone go for 6th Dan or higher yet. So I guess if you go from white belt to 8th kup, and you don't skip any kups, it would cost you $200 to get to first kup, then another $100 for 1st Dan - $300 altogether - similar to your program. The fees (minus whatever goes to the Kukkiwon) all go to the Black Belt Society, a non-profit organization that fulfills an advisory and leadership role for the martial arts program. RE: single wrap belts. I'm not EXACTLY sure about the raison d'etre for them. Maybe someone else on this forum can answer the question. I believe it had something to do with competition. I got my black belt right around the time we were making the move to the v-neck uniforms. I understand that part of the rationale for the uniforms was to get a dobok that was less likely to pull open and get all tangly during competition - particularly with a hogu on. I think the belt had to do with the same thing. The thought being that a single wrap belt was likely to get all tangled up and was easier to retie should it come undone during a competition. It's either that or the Koreans just wanted to be different from the Japanese - as far as uniforms and belts were concerned. :-) I don't think Dr. Min ever awarded another single wrap belt again. At least not as a persons "first" black belt. I know of only a handful of people who use(d) them - mostly competitors. There is only one other at Cal right now, besides myself, that uses one. His name is Kim Royce. He just got his 5th Dan and, as part of the promotion, they ordered him a new belt with the stripes. He asked for and received a single wrap. Kim used to be an international competitor and was used to wearing the single wrap. Even now, when I show the people at Cal my belt, they don't believe it either. Most have never seen one. Does anybody else know people who use the single wraps? Hope that answers some of your questions. ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:05:30 PST Subject: the_dojang: Perseverence I have (too much) personal experience with prednisone. Though it may havesave my life, 10 years ago, I has destroied my hip joints to where, at 40, I am facing total hip replacement. Sincerely,Steven E. Silz +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This post and Karla's and a few others got me wondering what or to whom do you attribute your perseverence to in the martial arts? Do you find it extends to a philosophy you live in your entire life or did you get this philosophy by studying martial arts. As another poster commented some people get their belts by walking others by crawling and some by being pushed. What creates your win through abilities? I find this quality seems to be a common thread amongst dedicated martial artists and is what makes them great instructors and leaders. Was there one benchmark that you overcame or was it a series of circumstances that brought you this strength of character and determination? Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:28:29 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Choi & Takeda--what we don't know. . . <> <> Hi Jim. The photograph in question is included in the book, "Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu", edited by Stanley Pranin, who is also the editor of "Aikido Journal", a magazine which also focuses on jujutsu. On page 111, it depicts 11 men sitting together for a portrait at the Asahi News Dojo, including the teacher of the group, Takeda, Sokaku. There have been some individuals, among them I believe (correct me if i'm wrong), Michael Wollmerschauser, who claim that one of the men included in this photograph is Choi, Yong-sool. Supposedly, we are to believe that Choi is the man sitting farthest to the left, his face obscured and bleached by bad lighting. In actuality, the bleach-faced individual is absolutely unrecognizeable, and the only people to put forth this theory have been a few _American_ hapkido people. As the person is not labled in the book, I suppose that it would be very easy for an opportunist, or would-be historical revisionist to claim that it is "proof" of Choi's having studied directly under Takeda. One conspiracy-loving American instructor has even claimed that the face of the unknown man was purposefully obscured! But why would it have been partially obscured, if the "conspirators" had these capabilities, why would they not have completely obliterated it, had it been intentional, had someone really wanted to "remove" this man's face? There is also another face in the photo, which is also obscured by light. No crazy claims have been made about him yet. Pranin himself by the way, does not support the claim that the man on the far left is Choi Yong-sool. As to "knowing" the history of Choi, and how it relates to Hapkido, here are some of the things we _don't_ know. While these things don't necessarily mean that Choi was _never_ a student of Takeda's, it sure leaves some of his claims open to question. In the interest of sleep (my need for), I'm leaving out exact references, but anyone who's _really, Really_ interested can e-me for 'em: 1. Choi claims to have lost all of his certificates, etc. from Takeda Sokaku on a train home to T'aegu in Korea, claims they were stolen. Neither Choi's family nor any of his students, nor anyone in any of the Daito-ryu organizations in Japan have anything, not one picture, not a scrap of paper, which could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Choi was an actual student of Takeda's. Once back in Korea, Choi is not known to have corresponded with any Daito Ryu people--or the Takeda family, odd behavior for someone who supposedly knew the one-time head of the family intimately! 2. Nobody in the Daito-ryu world _or_ from the Takeda family remembers Choi, either by his Korean name, or the Japanese names some theorize he may have used (again, no evidence of him having used these while he was in Japan), Yoshida Asao or Yoshida Tatujutsu. Takeda's son, Takeda Tokimune, who took over the Daito-ryu system after his father's passing, did not remember Choi, and of all the people who probably would have been around. . .Scott Shaw does mention that a family in Japan, family friends of the Takedas, remembered Choi, but he is not very specific--and it seems odd that family friends could recall the man 50 years after his return to Korea when the Takeda family itself could not. As to the silly conspiracy claims that suggest that there has been a cover-up on the part of the Japanese, it should be stressed that the names of other Koreans do appear in the official Daito-ryu register books, and the Takeda family has never stooped to denying or discrediting any breakaway or offshoot group. It seems rather, that if Choi has been remembered, individuals would have been rather proud to make the connection between his brand of yu-sool, and daito-ryu. 3. Choi's early students do remember his using the term "Dai Dong Ryu Yu Sool", which is simply the Korean pronounciation of the written characters of "Great East School gentle skills", or "Dai-To-Ryu-Ju-Jutsu", which does suggest that Choi studied the art while he was in Japan. The question is, did he study from Takeda, and if so for how long? Was he really a personal servant of Takeda Sokaku's for 30 years in Japan, unremembered by a single soul, even the family & students of the man he served? I am pretty well convinced from all that I have uncovered & compared that we shall never know for sure. I, personally suspect that he held employment away from Takeda, but did study with Takeda at seminars, and perhaps directly under Takeda or one of his senior students, but this is only my opinion, and really has no base in solid facts. Technique wise, I am convinced of a connection. Even comparing the techniques between different Daito-ryu schools and different Hapkido schools in say, for instance, defenses against more than one attacker are very similar. Weaponry, too is similar. Daito teaches staff, fan, cane, umbrella, sword, knife, rope--all familiar samurai implements. Hapkido (including KSW & HRD) teaches these, too. But--the fare is not identical. If Choi was a Daito student at one time, he also must have had other sources, whether they were instructors, or simply his own observations of other arts, we'll never know. 4. In a translated, taped interview, Chang Chin-ill, a student of Choi's prior to Choi's passing in 1984, Choi makes some rather bizzar, absolutely untrue claims. Among them, that Takeda Sokaku committed suicide! He is supposed to have killed himself in 1943, because, according to Choi & the translator of the interview, Takeda couldn't bear the dishonor of Japan losing the war! Sorry to remind ye, folks-- Japan didn't surrender until 1945!! Not only that, Takeda Sokaku is well known to have died of natural causes at Aomori Train station, surrounded by his students (witnesses, in other words)! There were others, but this was one of the most obvious, and silliest. Was there an error in translation? Was Mr. Choi a bit senile at the time of the interview, was he confusing actual memories with fictional events? Who knows. This would drip suspicion onto at least some of the claims Choi made when he was in his later years. There. Ideas & theories that I have included in my study, & now share with you. Please be open with one another, too--share information, do not contribute to the general ignorance by selfishly hoarding, or keeping your ideas to yourself. There are no secrets in the martial arts, no great conspiracies--we're all trying to figure it out together here. Respectfully, C.J. ------------------------------ From: Greg Giddins Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:10:13 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Trophies >In one narrow sense there is a difference [between trophies and patches]. There is a finite supply of trophies for each tournament event, usually for first and second, or first, second and third place.< Well, I hear ya. And yes, there might be a difference there. Although I do believe that due to the number of organizations, Associations, Federations, etc., that the 3 trophies per division (which can get very numerous for each tournament) per tournament per organization per region, per state, per city, etc. may affect this also. There are quite a few trophies out there, and plenty of "first place winners" and "champions"... A good question that occasionally pops up is from new students who start looking around for a dojang is "How many world champions are there????" What you followed up with is a great statement: >If an award didn't cost much in terms of > effort, dedication, or achievement, how much can it be worth? And to this, add the converse: If an award costs much in terms of dedication, sacrifice and achievment it can be priceless. Whether a trophy made out of plastic or patch made of cloth, I guess what you put in to them is what you get out of them. Some trophies are relatively easy to own, some extrordinarily difficult. The same goes with patches, some come very easily, some are quite the accomplishment. Greg Giddins ggiddins@ossinc.net If you are living like there is no God, you'd better be right. ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:42:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #84 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.