From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #102 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 20 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 102 In this issue: the_dojang: Karate Babies the_dojang: AAU >> USTU the_dojang: Jewelry the_dojang: teaching kids the_dojang: Young Children Grow Up!!! A Little Humor!!! the_dojang: oooops ... I forgot the_dojang: Re: Active Participation the_dojang: AAU/USTU patch the_dojang: Re:Help Re: the_dojang: AAU/USTU patch the_dojang: Re: no flame here the_dojang: Re: have a seat the_dojang: Re: 10-15 yr olds the_dojang: Fire! Rethought the_dojang: Did You Deserve That Trophy (Medal)? the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Giddins Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:42:28 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Karate Babies Boy is there a difference of opinions on this one, eh? Anybody care to hear what I think? Fantastic, I'd be happy to. Speaking of my own future children, I hope they learn to kick as soon as they learn to stand! And I would love to see my toddler trying to do a form! Of course, that's MY toddler, and I'm talking exercises and forms. For everyone elses kids, theres NO WAY I would teach a class of toddlers. No way. I wouldn't teach a child under the age of 9, I have thought long and hard about that and that age keeps popping up. What a parent teaches their child at home, in a VERY controlled setting is up to them. Heck, some kids are getting firearms training as a toddler by their parents, and that's cool. But I would never suggest getting a group of 6 year olds out on a firing range blasting away! The second thing I know you are all dying to read about is my opinion about children SPARRING. Ugh, and oh my. I've seen toddlers flailing away at eachother in class (even at the school I am at now) and it absolutely turns my stomach. Little guys who wouldn't even be able to tell me which hand is left and which right are out there kicking and punching eachoter with that manic grin on their faces (you all know what I'm talking about).... Just makes me sick. Children trying to knock eachother silly, and geting rewarded for it! You think they understand "control", or "compassion"? No way. And aren't those 2 things central to being a martial artist? Even if you feel you have to compromise by allowing toddlers in class, having them fight eachoter is one of the most barbaric misuses of the power we are given as "teachers". Okay, give it to me. Greg Giddins ggiddins@ossinc.net Open your arms to change, but don't let go of your values. ------------------------------ From: "Perry Seto" Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:50:23 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: AAU >> USTU Dakin, Thanks for your response. I thought I remembered Dr. Min having a hand in the formation of the AAU TKD program but wasn't sure, late last night, when I was writing the post. Also, if I remember correctly, the reason for the USTU was that we needed a National Governing Body for TKD in the US in order for it to be considered a USOC sport and, for whatever reason, the AAU TKD program just didn't quite make it. Anybody else with input? I know that I checked the website for the USTU a few weeks back and it lists all of the past presidents. Dr. Min was prez somewhere around 1974-1978 (before the USTU was formed) ... so they consider his time as prez of the AAU program as tenure for the USTU. - -Perry- pseto@aptl.com ------------------------------ From: "Perry Seto" Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:57:17 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Jewelry I've always made people take off ALL of their jewelry in class. As with my other post re: make-up at tournaments, I've never really had a problem with anyone wearing too much make up to class. I'd have the same attitude though .... OK as long as it doesn't interfere. I've seen people come to some of the other classes with their jewelry taped up. I guess the decision has kind of been left up to the instructor. But ..... in my class, no jewelry. - -Perry- pseto@aptl.com ------------------------------ From: "Perry Seto" Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:17:02 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: teaching kids Thanks to everyone for the response regarding teaching kids. The posts have been a lot of fun to read and contemplate. I've been "teaching" my son TKD since he was about three years old. I would show him a move or two every week or two and he would run around practicing it. I didn't feel that he was ready for "formal" training until last year, when he was six .... and even then it was borderline ... this was due to his (and every 5,6 and 7 year old's) attention span ... or lack thereof. He joined the "formal" program January of 1998 (he's seven now) and, because of circumstances, I've often had to teach his class - this was just on Saturdays. As of a few weeks ago, I now also teach the Thursday kids class (my son isn't there). I agree with you (mostly), Steve, that at this age the class is more fun and games and social/discipline skills than martial arts skills. The kids just don't have the attention span to do a "serious" martial arts drill for more than a few minutes - 5 minutes MAX. I still believe, however, that an introduction to martial arts at this age is fine .... as long as the instructor can adapt to kids attention spans and needs. To me this is just an introduction to martial arts for these kids - it SHOULD be fun. If they want to be serious about it, they can be as they get older, but at 4 or 5 or 6, even 7 (and particularly at 2 and 3), it has to be more "fun" stuff. Personally, if my son ever says he wants to "quit", it would be fine with me. I just want him to have the opportunity to pursue it if he wants. The choice is his. Hell .... I'm the same way. If it ever stop being "fun" for me, I'D quit. I think the point I'm really trying to get across is that we need to always find a balance in whatever we do. And, at different ages and maturity, the balancing point is different. We, as instructors, need to realize that and adjust accordingly. - -Perry- pseto@aptl.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:19:05 PST Subject: the_dojang: Young Children Grow Up!!! A Little Humor!!! Well this is from me, Jamaica. My son is a non-martial artist at the age of 23. hahahah and He still ducks when I throw a punch or give him my "evil eye," or teach him some self defense moves. He's also 6' 3" and 210 pounds while I am 5"4" and 110 pounds. Personally I like it that way. Humorous word of warning to those of you with young children starting out at a very young age. These pretty young children grow up really fast.. Now my son is a non-martial artist but yours..... you are going to have to work extra hard at keeping your skills up as you age, aren't you?.. These youngsters get old really quick and then they are learning from the best.... Get my drift. They are going to be expert teenage ninja turtles.... or power rangers or whatever.. hahaha best wishes to all of you during their teenage years!!!! Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Perry Seto" Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:21:24 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: oooops ... I forgot Oooops .. I forgot. Steve, I meant to mention that I concur with your opinion about "pushing" a young child into doing "activities". At that early age, they SHOULD be allowed to be kids. I refuse to "push" my son into anything. He chose the martial arts on his own .... if he "unchooses" it, so be it. But I feel the same with cub scouts, or team sports or any activity. Let them be kids .... let them have a choice. - -Perry- pseto@aptl.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:53:05 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Active Participation Jamaica wrote: << Since I have been a ref at ity bity tournaments and great big ones and have been at reserved tournaments and then others where parents are in the ring in my face haha (even after I told them to please keep their distance)..such a mistake.. anyway.. >> Parents should NEVER be in the ring or in a ref's face. Period. No discussion. If a parent has a problem, he/she should find a coach or instructor from their school who can represent them and the child in any discussion with judges or referees. <> At our state tournament, we had yelling, chanting, clapping, cheering, and even The Wave. It was being done by students, parents, and various supporters from our school in the beginning, but the chanting and cheering was taken up by other schools later. The Wave was a spur-of-the-moment thing that happened about 10 pm, when most were beyond goofy -- but what can you say? If nobody says or does anything mean-spirited, but is simply rooting for his/her school or teammate, I think it's fine. I absolutely DO NOT like to hear anyone yelling "Take him down!" "Knock him out!" "Finish him!" or anything of the kind. There are a lot of schools in our area whose instructors tell the parents that they can't cheer and that if they make noise their kid will probably be disqualified. I think that stinks. In the first place, it isn't true; and in the second place, if you want people to bring their kids to TKD competitions, you'd better let them have some of the options they'd have at baseball or soccer games. Within reason, competition should be enjoyable for everyone who goes. (Good grief, pretty soon my $.02 worths are going to add up to dollars!) Sally CBAUGHN@aol.com ------------------------------ From: burdickd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:19:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: AAU/USTU patch Ray wrote: The Union Pacific Railroad used a similar patch/logo long before the AAU. The US government was using it prior to the Union Pacific. Who used it before that? All I'm saying is that unless we talk to the person that came up with the USTU logo design we should not assume how/where their creative ideas were influenced. My Answer: Are you arguing that this is a case of coincidence? That the USTU designers just happened to come up with the same symbol as the AAu? I somehow do not find that to be a very likely possibility. I'm not sure why you're being defensive about this one Ray -- it is only a patch. Still, I think it is one of the sillier things about the USTU, that they still use the AAU logo as their patch. I really do think it speaks volumes about where the USTU came from, if nothing else. AAU TKD was organized first because for Olympic purposes TKD needed to be organized under independent national organizations and the AAU was the best candidate. As for the Union Pacific, the symbol is of course a common symbol for American nationalism, but why on earth would the USTU use a symbol that was so closely associated with the AAU (a rather old amateur sports organization in the US by the way -- founded in 1888)? Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:11:06 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re:Help Hi I am doing a research paper for school (History--- AUUUGH) and I am really interested in doing it on the MA. The only problem is I have not got a clue about my thesis statement could be and what I could prove.... One of the things we HAVE to do for this paper. Any suggestions? Thanks jols ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 07:47:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: AAU/USTU patch > Are you arguing that this is a case of coincidence? That the USTU > designers just happened to come up with the same symbol as the AAu? > I somehow do not find that to be a very likely possibility. I'm not > sure why you're being defensive about this one Ray -- it is only a patch. Defensive? Nope. At least I don't -think- so. I've heard you make this claim before and didn't say anything, but it just isn't a logical conclusion, IMHO. The AAU used it, they are older, therefore the USTU must have borrowed it from the AAU. Not necessarily so... Again, all I'm saying is that logo/shield design has been used soooo many times through history that one cannot ASSUME the creative influence on the USTU came from one particular instance of it, i.e. the AAU's. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:15:42 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: no flame here >>I have seen several messages now detailing very young children (2 years old and thereabouts) beginning MA practice. I simply can't believe it. Out of a mix of economic necessity and marketplace demand, I teach a small class (limited to 7 students) of 4 and 5 year old children. It is about 3% martial art technique, about 70% fun and games, and the rest discipline and social education. If I would allow it, enrollment would probably be triple or quadruple what it is now, but it is hard enough to control just the seven that I have now. I have taught this class for nearly 9 months. I have formed the following opinion: Children younger than 8 or 9 years old should not be in martial arts: they lack the physical and mental development to perform successfully (yes, I have seen some exceptions, but they were RARE); my mother is an early education specialist (doctorate) and generally agrees with this conclusion. Likewise, I don't think children in this age group should be in ballet, gymnastics (too much potential for serious injury), or any of the other half-dozen activities that I see them in: I think they should be in non-contact team sports, cub scouts, or other socializing physical-mental activities. I think that the real need is to educate parents to simply let children be children (lots of "free" time) and not to rush them into adolescence by pushing "activities." Flame me if you wish. Sincerely, Steven Gilmore San Antonio, TX <<< Steven, Don't duck, I'm not carrying a flame thrower...today ;0) Actually I've heard your arguments before and they are not without merit. I think however, that you missed my point. My daughter is just aching to get on the mat. When she turns 4 and IF she still wants to I will let her. Your point about 3% MA and 70% activities is quite valid. However, I say quite plainly "Nothing is wrong with that". Brownie scouts at age 4-5 is very little in the way of scouting (badges, projects, community service etc..) and very much in the way of coloring, wearing "cool uniforms" and making friends, in my experience. I think the important thing is to follow your child's lead. Of course, safety at this point is assumed. My son, now 6 and a blue belt did 2 months at age 4. When he quit I was a little sad but didn't say anything. He never forgot that exp. and later ASKED to rejoin. Also, I noticed that you teach these children in a class and I assume it is for money. IF this is true than I don't see how that can be reconciled with your statement "I think that the real need is to educate parents to simply let children be children (lots of "free" time) and not to rush them into adolescence by pushing "activities." I'm not sure your parents will get the message while you continue to offer the service. Several of the accomplished Martial Artists on this list SHARE their love of the MAs with their kids. I find that to be very natural. My father had football on ALL the time. As a result I learned some of the game rules and now really like watching an occasional game on a slow Sunday. Likewise I share my love of American Sign Lang. with my kids as well as my love of baking. Fingerspelling (that is using your hand to make a word letter-by-letter) is difficult. Certain handshapes are easier for them to use. They form some signs "wrong" but that is a natural part of development. Baking cookies can be dangerous. However, I use a different approach when my 2 year old or 6 yr. old is in the kitchen with me. The oven is not turned on until the dough is made and they have left the kitchen. Also we don't use the Kitchen Aid but will do it by hand. The kitchen has a gate so no one goes in with out my permission. I don't see why the MAs have to be different. Teach the 4-5 yr. olds special, "age-approriate" techniques, focus a lot on the tennets and have them kick and punch the air rather than a target that can often feel hard even to me. Personally, I don't support sparring at this age AT ALL. Two little people dressed up like fighting snowmen throwing kicks and punches feels very unnatural to me. Also they don't have to go as frequently or for as long. I'd love to take my daughter every Friday night to family class. Its over at 7:45, we'd be home by 8 and she'd be in bed by 8:30 and our weekend would start in a really fun way. Also, I wanted to speak to your argument about letting kids be kids. A child's work is to play and grow. If they see the class as fun playtime then they are being kids. Also, I see a little people MA program to be very similar in theory to tumble tots and gymboree and yet no one has come forth to say those are bad for our children. They provide for gross motor development, socialization skills like honesty and sharing and how to make friendships. Non-contact sports can be very demanding IMO. I have several neighbors and they take their 4-7 yr. olds 2 times a week for practice and once on the weekend for the game. I consider that hectic for sure. At least in the dojang the emphasis isn't on winning on any given day but rather that the kids enjoy the art so that improvement follows naturally. Thanks for the different perspective. Dawne ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:16:58 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: have a seat In a message dated 2/19/99 6:05:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > Now about when to introduce certain kicks. Roundhouse and sidekicks were the > first introduced along with front snap kick. When I switched dojangs they > taught a spinning hook kick. I HATE this kick. Give me a sidekick any day. > > In fact once I actually FELL ON MY BUTT >> > > you only fell on yer butt once? boy do i feel sheepish now :) > > melinda > (with a permanent ice pack strapped on her booty) Melinda, Don't feel to sheepish. I feel ONCE but I neglected to mention it was the first as ONLY time I ever tried it. Feel better, I'm sure I'll fall next week too. ha ah ha! Dawne ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:32:11 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: 10-15 yr olds > We do tend to keep the socializing under control, but the enthusiasm never > seems to surface. I feel it is the responsibility of the instructor to > motivate these children and get them to put more effort into there > techniques Chris, Just outta curiosity - have you ever thought of planning an activity or activities for them out of class time? Like a Christmas gift exchange or dance. Or a trip to a local Korean restaurant? I think their want to socialize is pretty normal considering their hormones. However, even at my age I really enjoy seeing my master in situations outside of the dojang. Makes him feel more "human" somehow. It also creates memories and stories that can be told and retold and laughed at over and over. Kinda like the oral-history tradition my Mom (oldest of 6) keeps up, and Willingly so. Maybe then they would know the dojang can be a fun place but that training and fun have a different time and purpose. Of course you could have tried all this and it was a bust. Dawne ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:29:51 EST Subject: the_dojang: Fire! Rethought Please do NOT instruct your self defense students to use this term. Reasons: 1) Since it was aired on Oprah, too many people know this "trick" and will run in the other direction now. 2) If you are in a crowded area, you could cause a stampede for safety and injure yourself or others (especially children). 3) It does nothing to assist your student's emotional mindset. Suggestion: Have your students swear, cuss and throw every nasty, fowl word in their mind. This accomplishes a number of things: 1) It empowers the student. And I do mean EMPOWERS. We have been training women in self defense for over 10 years now and nothing gets them fired up more than letting loose a string of foul language. 2) Cussing is a form of verbal attack. It is just another tool to use in your defense... it puts the attacker on the defense mentally, even if only minutely. In most cases, this is not at all what the attacker expected, and this makes it a valuable element of surprise. 3) Few bystanders wish to assist a woman who is getting assaulted... but tons of people want to watch/assist a woman beat the daylights out of a man who is trying to attack her. So they are walking along and witness a man beating a woman who is swearing at him and hitting back... this is a much more "likable" scenario for those who might otherwise ignore it. The woman appears to be holding her own, the cussing and sheer defiance stir up the crowd instinct (join in on a fight that you stand a really good chance of winning). Many will rush in to assist - because the woman is fighting as well, the assisting people won't have to take on the job of protection all by themselves. If you wish to train the women to yell something, have them yell something that will give them an edge. Swearing helps to rid a woman of her inhibitions in her defense. It strengthens her and helps her develop an attitude conducive to her protection. Meghan Gardner Instructor Director AMWA http://users.aol.com/taoart/amwa/amwa.htm - A Comprehensive Martial Arts and Self Defense website: With an online bookstore, public bulletin board, articles, and over 1000 links. http://members.aol.com/ASAPsmnrs/asap.htm - Awareness, Safety and Assault Prevention Seminars for Corporations, Universities and Organizations. ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:37:06 PST Subject: the_dojang: Did You Deserve That Trophy (Medal)? A question that used to come up all the time and be debated amongst me and my competitor friends was this. You're at a tournament. Nobody is in your division or maybe 1 other person. Sometimes they present you with a first place trophy just cause you were there. Sometimes they give you a token fight just to demonstrate your skills. My feelings are this. You are not in control of who shows at tournaments and how many are in your division. For many people it is a very extended effort to prepare for a tournament to get psyched up and to travel and pay for the tournament. Getting a "freebie" so to speak also makes up for those memorable moments when you didn't get the placing you really did deserve (haha or thought we deserved!) Now I had adrenaline like Perry at these tournaments but I must say, my adrenaline didn't work for me, it was usually working against me, and I am so glad some of the tournaments had loudspeakers in the washrooms because otherwise I would have missed my match (stomach problems)so for me if someone showed or didn't it was still an effort. Some of my friends would not accept the trophy. Some wanted to be placed in another division even if it wasn't the correct one., ie older woman placed in a younger womans division or a man's division. Of course you'd probably see this more at local tournaments than larger ones. Then there were those other tournaments where I would scope out the competition and feel really smug seeing only a few competitors and knowing I could take them. THEN... they announced the match and I swear out of the woodwork about 20 people would show and I really had my work cut out. Or what about the times you got a trophy and felt it was a lucky call or you didn't deserve it.. What kinds of feelings did you have either as a competitor or if you were the parent and your child won, or a coach, instructor? Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:25:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #102 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.