From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #113 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thurs, 25 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 113 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: kids classes and music the_dojang: Re: U.F.C. the_dojang: Re: V6 #111: traditions of teaching, East vs. West the_dojang: Re: V6 #111: purism (puritanism?) the_dojang: Re: UFC the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #111 the_dojang: Re: Socrates the_dojang: Methods of Teaching the_dojang: funny the_dojang: Re: rolls/falls the_dojang: A Martial Arts Purist the_dojang: East/West Teachings the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:59:54 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: kids classes and music In a message dated 2/25/99 8:39:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > I have never played music. I am disinclined to do so because I think it > would be distracting; sometimes I have to repeat -- loudly -- my > instructions 4 times before everyone follows along, I can't imagine what it > would be like if I had to compete with music. On the other hand kickbox fitness style classes rely on music much in the same manner aerobic classes do. I would think that if you have a set warm up routine to a specific (set of) song(s), then you would have to loudly repeat any instructions. The association of this bar of music equals that stretch becomes quickly ingrained. When I was in college and working at a fitness place, aerobics were just becoming popular. (To give you a time frame, my manager was thought to be bizarre and fought corporate policy by *insisting* we wear aerobic shoes instead of ballet slippers when we taught.) To this day, I can not hear the song "Always Something There to Remind Me" and "Beat It" without automatically thinking of where I need to be in the routine. Usually it's a split second thing; however, it's still there. I suspect it's still there for many of my regular students as well. ; ) Tang Soo! Karla ------------------------------ From: Steven Gilmore Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:58:56 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: U.F.C. >What do Kuk Sool or Hapkido practitioners think of U.F.C. or similar >events? Never seen one. Have no interest in it; it is too base. Humans should pursue higher things, and fight only when life is at risk. Sincerely, Steven Gilmore San Antonio, TX, USA ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:06:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #111: traditions of teaching, East vs. West >Any thoughts on this topic? It seems to me that grafting an art from a culture of Confucian (for want of a better adjective) teaching to a culture with a Socratic tradition presents an opportunity to synthesize new methods by combining the best features of the two, for those who are willing accept that challenge. As with all opportunities, there are associated risks;>) Tang Soo! Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@cyberenet.net ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:06:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #111: purism (puritanism?) >I was wondering if anyone considered themselves a purist of the martial >arts? I have met so many different martial artists. No, I don't. However, as a teenager, I learned judo from a sensei who was an absolute purist. As I recall, he grumbled about the brothers who ran a judo studio in the next town because they were commercial. He considered profit from teaching the art to be contrary to its principles. On the gripping hand, he was an excellent teacher and example. My TSD instructor is definitely _not_ a purist, yet he is also a good teacher and a great motivator. >Are you one regarding a specific style of teaching or do you feel you >can be a purist of the umbrella term - martial arts? I think there are so many conflicts between the traditions of various ma's that one might need to be seriously schizophrenic to even attempt to be a generic purist. >If you are a purist is it in your own personal training? Do you feel a >purist could still be one in their own personal life but perhaps out of >necessity need to compromise in your teachings to others? I try to find a path that is right for me. That path is somewhere between those chosen by the instructors mentioned above, but that is just how it happened to work out (I think;>) >Do you think there can be varying degrees of a purist since even the >color white has different shades? Perhaps from pure to pedant? Depends on the perspective, IMHO. To an observer, no doubt there would appear to be many degrees of purism. Each individual practioner, however, will define one ideal for their art as "pure" (not that this ideal won't evolve over time), and will either choose to adhere to that ideal, or not. Tang Soo! Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@cyberenet.net ------------------------------ From: Ken Brown Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:21:08 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: UFC Christian Fortin asks: >What do Kuk Sool or Hapkido practitioners think of U.F.C. or similar = >events?=20 I haven't really seen the UFC in quite some time, but there are local mixed martial arts events that I try to attend(to watch, not compete). It's usually a mix of different styles of Jiu Jitsu(there's a healthy BJJ representation because the Carlson Gracie, Jr. team has a local Dojo) with some Judo and a handful of other stylists thrown in. I enjoy watching them as a fight fan, I guess in the same way I enjoy going to boxing matches even though I don't practice boxing. In spite of the "no-holds-barred" hype, there are always some rules that the fighters need to follow, and more than anything I think these matches are a measure of how well any particular fighter can perform within the boundries of those rules, not the superiority of one style over another. I've seen HKD guys(and one KSW guy) perform in these events with mixed success. Contrary to the way the UFC seems to have gone, the fights I attend are more sporting event than brawl, with a lot of talented martial artists, not just big meatheads that can withstand and dish out a lot of pain. Ken Brown(KSW) Chicago, IL ------------------------------ From: Ernest Hart Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:21:44 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #111 > I found the things I discovered by 'doing it' rather than 'discussing or > debating it' were more both more beautiful and more meaningful. It also suits > my authoritarian style of running class. > Any thoughts on this topic? Mr. Silz: I agree completely with the above. I have found that students in my area are becoming more and more dependent on "spoon-feeding" when it comes to learning. To me, Taekwondo provides a place where that doesn't happen as the rule. Of course, sometimes I will just "spoon" them information. Actually, some nights it's more like steam shovel. But I still feel that the most internalized concepts are the ones that you discover for yourself. For me, it's pretty hard to convey the feeling of kicking deeper into a target, but once they do it, they all say, OH Yeah, that's what he's been talking about. Most of the "good" Taekwondo practitioners that I know have spent lots of additional time on their own working on it. I don't intend to devalue instruction, but rather say that working on it without help can be useful as well. > I think this whole issue could be avoided by the instructor continuing to > study as well. > If the instructor is still learning new material how can anyone "catch up"? > They will always be a number of years behind the master... Mr. Giddins: I discussed this with my instructor a while back. It is difficult to say. Physically, the students should be able to progress more quickly than the master did, due to improvements in teaching/training techniques. He said 1/2 the time. I figure that it's closer to 2/3. My red belts have the technical skill and knowledge that I did when I went for 1 Dan by and large. This is barring physical ability differences. For instance, my instructor does all of the splits, and can hold his side kick nearly straight up. I cannot, never could, and probably never will. But I have a exceedingly destructive naroban. (Injure myself almost everytime I break with it) :) Mentally, it's another different story. You can boil it down to life experience and personality. I have had 19 yr old green belt students that were more mature, etc. than some 30+ yr old black belts that I know, although the reverse is usually the case. E. Hart Burlington, VT ------------------------------ From: jberwin@sc45.rsc.raytheon.com (John Brett Erwin 972-952-3738 ERWN) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:52:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Socrates >"Over the last decade during which I have taught daily, I have found >that my students, quite naturally, are accustomed to the Socratic >tradition, and seem to expect it in the dojang...challenge them > >to 'learn by doing,' as this was the tradition I was raised in takwondo >under. I found the things I discovered by 'doing it' rather than >'discussing or debating it' were more both more beautiful and more >meaningful." Ummm... I beleive the "Socratic Method" of instruction is to teach by asking questions to stimulate student thought and problem solving. In fact, I wrote my instructor thesis on this method, because I use it quite a bit when teaching adults. If you develop in them the habit of questioning themselves about why they are doing certain things, and in a certain way, then eventually you will develop a "self-monitoring" student. One who can evaluate him/herself. Adults respond to logic (read: things that make sense). They don't want to be blindly lead down a path without knowing where they're going or why we've chosen this particular path. It's an easier, smoother ride for them when they figure out how to "drive" themselves (read: self-monitoring). One way to acheive this is through the "Socrating Method." - - Brett Erwin Allen, TX jberwin@ti.com ------------------------------ From: Scott Apple Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:59:52 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Methods of Teaching >The Western system of instruction, descended from the time of Socrates, requires the student (or disciple) to present a question (challenge) to the teacher (mentor, master). The teacher's responsibility is to offer a response that will bring enlightenment to the pupil. [Of course this method presumes that the student is capable of asking the "right questions."] In contrast, the traditional Eastern system requires the teacher to assign a task through the completion of which the pupil finds enlightenment. The student does not question the teacher. [This method presumes the student will pursue the task diligently, independently and to reasonable conclusion] Over the last decade during which I have taught daily, I have found that my students, quite naturally, are accustomed to the Socratic tradition, and seem to expect it in the Dojang. While I do accommodate them a bit in offering them some enlightenment by direct answer, I am more inclined to challenge them to "learn by doing," as this was the tradition I was raised in Taekwondo under. I found the things I discovered by 'doing it' rather than 'discussing or debating it' were more both more beautiful and more meaningful. It also suits my authoritarian style of running class. Any thoughts on this topic? - ------------------- Steven, thank you for this thought-provoking question. I agree that most of us in the US are familiar with asking questions, challenging the instructor, and getting involved in discussion in order to learn. I believe that we would do well to incorporate more learning through discovery as is provided by following through with what the instructor tells us to do. We have a problem in our culture, however, in that people are afraid to trust other people--especially those in authority. If I do what you ask me to do, I might get "burned" by it. If I just "blindly" follow what you say to do, it will be too late to do anything about it once I find out it wasn't good for me. If I question and challenge you first, however, and may arrive at the place of being satisfied that I wont get burned if I do what you ask. Only then will I proceed and follow your instructions. I'm not saying that this is how I do things, but it is how many people look at the world. Sadly, it is due, I believe, to many people abusing their positions of authority, and many parents who have been derelict in their duty to their own children. The condition of our country and our world is a testament to this problem. Having said that, I believe that in a situation where the teacher truly has the best interest of the student at heart, and the student knows he/she can trust the instructor, that it is very good to teach/learn by allowing the student to simply follow the instruction of the teacher and thereby discover on their own. This makes the discovery personal to the student; the learning takes on substance and becomes like a mile marker in the life of the student. I also believe it gives the student a firm, secure foundation on which to build. Relating this to TKD, I am only now beginning to see the value in simply doing what my instructor tells me to do. I do not need to question my instructor and know why I have to move my foot in this seemingly unnatural position while I perform a certain kick. But I do find out very soon that if I do what my instructor says, then I actually kick with more ease and power. If I do not do what my instructor says, I lose my balance and fall on my face, or I get kicked in the teeth. This learning by discovery is extremely effective. I'm interested in knowing what anyone else thinks about this, as well. Scott Apple Nashville ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:17:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: funny > probably never will. But I have a exceedingly destructive naroban. > (Injure myself almost everytime I break with it) :) HiHi... Great line! Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:12:48 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: rolls/falls > >Well I qualify as a low belt in HKD so here it goes. Classes for me (all 3 > of them) so far have been wrist grabs and those darn siderolls. In fact, > class #2 we did 40 min. of siderolls. > > What are these siderolls? Are they side breakfalls, or a kind of cartwheel? > I'm doing Aikido, we roll forwards, or backwards, but if it is on the side, > we slap the mat to do a breakfall. Ok, you're putting me to task here, lets see if I learned my lessons. This *roll* (my word, for lack of a better one) has much in common with the cartwheel. For example if my lead arm is my right arm then it remains FIRM (I have a problem with this and have been corrected many times) so that your right forearm - to the elbow- touches the mat. The shoulder and head never touch the mat. We also SLAP the mat. I learned very quickly that if I land correctly with legs and arms in coordination it absorbs the force and hurts a lot less. It would seem then that this is really a breakfall. At first I was doing more of a forward roll so I guess the word just stuck in my brain. FWIW, I believe other list members call this a "catroll" tho' I have never heard that before this list. Dawne- who hasn't been very clear lately -lets blame it on this d@mn flu. ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:25:12 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: A Martial Arts Purist First of all I want to thank Jamaica for always coming up with some great topics to discuss in this forum. She always seems to be pushing this forum to a new level. >I was wondering if anyone considered themselves a purist of the martial arts? I have met so many different martial artists. Are you one regarding a specific style of teaching or do you feel you can be a purist of the umbrella term - martial arts? If you are a purist is it in your own personal training? Do you feel a purist could still be one in their own personal life but perhaps out of necessity need to compromise in your teachings to others? Do you think there can be varying degrees of a purist since even the color white has different shades? Perhaps from pure to pedant?< I feel that I am a "Purist" to an extent. I love to practice old style martial arts or, a more popular term, "traditional" martial arts. I love to learn the history and their forms as well as the philosophy behind it all. When I teach, I do teach a core art, which happens to be TKD. However, I implement other systems and ideas into the teachings as well. When the students test, they test soley under the guide lines of the core art. That way if they move or leave for another TKD dojang, they will be able to prove their current rank to the new instructor. I feel that it is very rare to find a purist who will only eat, sleep, teach and learn just one style. They tend to be closed minded to new ideas or other systems, and turn out to be the "My style is better than your style" mentality. There is nothing wrong with practicing a keeping loyal to one style as long as your mind is opened to watch and learn about, without actually practicing, other systems. Jeremy ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:42:23 PST Subject: the_dojang: East/West Teachings >>>>Of course this method presumes that the student is capable of asking the "right questions." I have found that my students, quite naturally, are accustomed to the Socratic tradition, and seem to expect it in the dojang. While I do accommodate them a bit in offering them some enlightenment by direct answer, I am more inclined to challenge them to "learn by doing," as this was the tradition I was raised in takwondo under. I found the things I discovered by 'doing it' rather than 'discussing or debating it' were more both more beautiful and more meaningful. It also suits my authoritarian style of running class. Any thoughts on this topic? Steven E Silz ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ There are never any wrong questions, nor ridiculous questions. They are always the right question for the individual. That's what so beautiful about the Socratic way of thinking and learning. Interaction and active participation with appropriate, understandable feedback to the unique individual along with an appropriate, understandable recognition and reward system which also incorporates "doing." http://lonestar.texas.net/~mseifert/crit3.html http://www.thedialoguegame.com/ There is an old saying...when in France do as the French do. I taught English as a 2nd language for several years to university age students. I have also presented to many diverse groups and published articles for different groups. The first rule of thumb before teaching or making a presentation is knowing and understanding your audience. Learning their culture so that you can incorporate your teachings into a format that makes sense to them not vice versa. Aside from the difference in expecations and teaching styles many of the m.a. instructors are Korean/Japanese and that also introduces a language barrier problem. The other problem I see is that this system is not explained to the western children/teens/adults of the martial arts. It is thrown at them for them to try and figure out. I find it deters from the learning process and in some instances sets a person up for a fall. Can also be used as a power control mechanism. If there is no comprehension of what is expected than it becomes a frustrating struggle and a desire to please more than learn. It's like putting a blindfold on someone and telling them to find their way. I find the term enlightenment overused and quite often used inappropriately. It carries with it mystical and spiritual connotations of something that will quite uniquely happen to you in some unpredictable fashion rather than a learning process. And for those that approach martial arts without the correct learning of what enlightenment is this is also confusing. The eastern way of teaching also sets up another roadblock for students in the west in that they don't have a familial support system to help them understand what is being taught when they go back home after class and try and explain and share with their parents or friends who have never been introduced to this style. This adds to the confusion and delays the learning process. If the child is a slow learner even worse. How can the parents/teachers/neighbors help the child along when they don't understand. I had a master's level friend once that did what she called an ice breaker exercise with college age students. She would tape a name to their backs. And then she would hand them a list of 5 questions or clues and ask them by method of deduction to decide who was the name she put on their back. She would go through the papers and take international names and figures from politics, activists, etc. People that normally you and I wouldn't recognize even with big clues. She would chastize these kids for not being well read individuals. Chastizement can also come in the form of a a smirk, body language, roll of the eyes, condescending attitude. The thing is it wasn't that she was so well read herself she just set them up for a fall to make herself look better. A harsh way to learn. And as I stated once before, sometimes we learn with a teacher or sometimes in spite of one. I'm sure there are schools where this works and it appears it does for you Steve but I find it counterproductve to efficienct learning for the majority of western people. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:21:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #113 ******************************** Attention USA WTFers! Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.