From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #115 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 26 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 115 In this issue: the_dojang: HKD - Grappling the_dojang: teaching everything you know... the_dojang: Chang Moo Kwan name.. the_dojang: Journals, Logs, and Perhaps Diaries the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #111 the_dojang: Kids and music during class BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from [Bryce Burrows (fwd) the_dojang: re: instructing males/females the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #114 the_dojang: Re: demotions/expulsions the_dojang: demotion the_dojang: Re: demotion the_dojang: Re: grappling the_dojang: Re: cooking in the dojang the_dojang: Seoul the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "G. Booth" Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:33:01 +1100 Subject: the_dojang: HKD - Grappling Ther are some components of Hapkido that could be looked upon as grappling however these are do not number many. Grandmaster Ji Han Jae teaches a number of ground defence postions, one which even looks similar to the BJJ open guard. However the general feeling is don't go to the ground. Thats were your opponent should be headed. :) Within my schools we play with grappling, however we ensure that our members understand it is and will not be a component of Hapkido as such. Regards Geoff Australian Hapkido Group http://hapkido.netro.com.au "The art is in the person, all we have to do is bring it out" ------------------------------ From: "aparedes" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:58:55 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: teaching everything you know... Well, this is what I think. Look at my quote tag from Luke 6-40 Alex Paredes Aparedes@gateway.net World Chang Moo Kwan 3rd Dan www.geocities.com/colosseum/arena/8129/index.html - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----------- " A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher." Luke 6-40 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ From: "aparedes" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:02:53 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Chang Moo Kwan name.. I stand corrected thanks to Mr. Hernandez. They correct name for a Provisional Black Belt in CMK is Cho Dan Bo. Alex Paredes Aparedes@gateway.net World Chang Moo Kwan 3rd Dan www.geocities.com/colosseum/arena/8129/index.html - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----------- " A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher." Luke 6:40 ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:03:11 PST Subject: the_dojang: Journals, Logs, and Perhaps Diaries Well this thought came to me first after conversing with Perry Seto about some of his posts and 2nd after reading the impeccable posts of the forum historians. Last time I chatted with Perry I told him that I thought his posts were not only colorful and very well written but certainly documented with passion and detail from some of his personal and quite memorable experiences. I asked Perry if he printed out his forum posts and put them together in a binder for his young son Jonathan to read when he gets older. Obviously a great amount of time and consideration goes into all of our posts. So then I started thinking about historians and how important it is for them to seek out and be committed to finding the truth. But soon there will be a new generation of historians that will want to find out your truths. And then I came to this question in my mind. Do you document your own martial arts histories from beginning to end as you do others. Will one day another young martial artist be able to access your travels through the martial arts and come upon your original journal in awe. Or perhaps you will choose to pass it on to a worthy blackbelt. Now journals don't necessarily have to be exact writings every night of your life but perhaps notes scribbled on napkins at the dinner table, steno pad scribblings while you're on the phone, recipe card file boxes full of memorable occasions, or the current day, day-timer calendar and planners. Or maybe even a separate file on your hard drive or a collection of disks...haha although that's risky considering how the formats change. I'd make sure to have a hard copy if I went that route!!! Does anyone keep a log or diary of their activities for themselves, their children and perhaps the new generation of historians? Maybe documented with pictures, too! Thanks. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:15:30 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #111 << I have a thought regarding teaching/learning philosophies I'll like to put before your audience to see what consensus (if any) may arise: The Western system of instruction, descended from the time of Socrates, requires the student (or disciple) to present a question (challenge) to the teacher (mentor, master). The teacher's responsibility is to offer a response that will bring enlightenment to the pupil. [Of course this method presumes that the student is capable of asking the "right questions."] In contrast, the traditional Eastern system requires the teacher to assign a task through the completion of which the pupil finds enlightenment. The student does not question the teacher. [This method presumes the student will pursue the task diligently, independently and to reasonable conclusion]>> Very good point! Some learn best by doing, others by hearing, some by seeing. However, I have found that learning by trial-and-error in the martial arts is the best way to grasp a technique, not matter what it is. Students, once having seen and felt what the causes and effects, don't question because they see what goes on. Newton's Third Law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. << Over the last decade during which I have taught daily, I have found that my students, quite naturally, are accustomed to the Socratic tradition, and seem to expect it in the dojang. While I do accommodate them a bit in offering them some enlightenment by direct answer, I am more inclined to challenge them to "learn by doing," as this was the tradition I was raised in takwondo under. I found the things I discovered by 'doing it' rather than 'discussing or debating it' were more both more beautiful and more meaningful. It also suits my authoritarian style of running class.>> Like Nike says, "JUST DO IT." The majority of Westerners have a difficult time understanding this motto. (Sorry, but this does ring true.) Have confidence in yourself that you can execute the technique. If you do it wrong, the instructor will correct your mistakes and tell you why you should not execute the technique that way. Some things you can only pick up on your own. However, to receive guidance from others helps the learning process and makes understanding more complete. Kim Jones addidastkd@aol.com - --"When you don't exercise your right to freedom of speech in the context it was meant to be exercised, your voice is lost among those of the conservatives who try to quell the rebellious." ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:15:27 EST Subject: the_dojang: Kids and music during class << Just a question. During kids warmup sessions or workout sessions do you ever play music? If you do, does it work or is it distracting. Does it help with focus and timing or take away from it? >> Well, there's some sort of tap dancing class that practices on the other side of the partition, and I think if they played better music and would play a wider variety, it would help us Taekwondo practitioners as well. I'm more agitated with the choice of music being played, over and over and over and over and over.... and if they would kindly stop playing Spice Girls, I would be even happier... but then they probably feel the same way about some of us yelling while doing our forms... but at least a ki'ap is musical in its own special way... Kim Jones addidastkd@aol.com - --"When you don't exercise your right to freedom of speech in the context it was meant to be exercised, your voice is lost among those of the conservatives who try to quell the rebellious." ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:10:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from [Bryce Burrows (fwd) You are bryce@mtf.co.nz. Ray - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded message: Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from [Bryce Burrows ] Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:48:59 +0000 From: Bryce Burrows >I've been talking this topic over with quite a Hapkido friends and >insturctors. It seems that maybe there was originally a grappling component >taught to higher ranks. > >My question is do any of the Hapkido practioners out there have a grapplin >component as part of their curriculum or perhaps do you study it outside of >your dojang (ie maybe a BJJ class or two) ... or you may not even do >grappling at all. > >Also do any KSW practitioners do grappling and is it part of the KSW >curriculum > >Just curious ! > >Yours in the Arts > >James Clark >Senior Consultant >Cliftons IT >http://www.cliftons.com.au >Level 4 >200 George St >Sydney NSW 2000 >Tel: (02) 9250-0999 >Fax: (02) 9241-5121 Hi, yes it appears that waaaay back in the precursors to "hapkido" there was an "art" or a style which was taught to the nobles etc (apparently the precursor to tkd was taught to the peasants etc from what i am lead to believe ) and this style had grappling as part of it...i can have a look for the email from the 2nd in charge of Kukjae and post it here as it contains the relevant info as to how this came about. But for myself i have studied BJJ, in fact i have picked up numerous videos on the subject and when i lived in London(UK) I trained BJJ there as well as that I visitied my instructor last year in Rio and Sao Paulo (managed to take in the world BJJ champs too !) and trained in a few clubs and met some very interesting people. I have made grappling more a part of the class that any other instructor we have had. Wheni was a coloured elt, we grappled when freesparring - but no one had any REAL idea of what to do...the winner usually won with a headlock (*ick* when i remember it) and was usually the bigger and stronger. Now that i have added the BJJ grappling component (and also techniques and drills from Judo and other styles that i like as well as my own additions) our grappling is very good and I have had students which have bettered Judo/(traditional) Jui Jitsu students on the mat. I find women tend to be better students at it also (but thats a long thread :) ) So, yes we (in Kukjae Hapkido, New Zealand) grapple..some better than others but that depends on the class and instructor of course :) have a good one mate. - -- Bryce Burrows Soho Soho Ltd. http://www.hail.icestorm.net/sohosoho/ ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:16:20 EST Subject: the_dojang: re: instructing males/females Tang Soo! Jamaica has asked yet another thoughtful question. Speaking as a female, on the small side, I find it difficult to do certain self defense techniques on anyone bigger than me (and that is most of the other adults), however I usually get paired with someone close to my size. Today I was able to work with a man who was very large, and he held on to me tight-very tight. But I learned more in the 5 minutes I spent with him than I had in a long time. Now, I know that many of the female students might not like learning that way, but I imagine it is an important part of the learning experience. One other sort of funny thing I run into sometimes is that male instructors sometimes don't understand or notice that certain body parts on women might interfere with the particular movement that they are learning; for example I am learning a form (Pyong O-dan) where I have to punch to the left with my right hand, and then to the right with my left hand. The instructor knows what he wants me to do...but there are a couple of kinda large things on my chest which get in the way, and my arm does not go as far as it does when the men do the same form (have I painted a picture with words??) I would be interested to know if any instructors try to understand the other gender in this respect. Men must suffer their own problems at times as well, for various reasons-do women instructors understand this too?? Allison 4th Gup International Tang Soo Do MBS Karate Newburgh, NY ------------------------------ From: Daremo and Kitsune Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:28:27 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #114 List, I've been busy with some other stuff and haven't had the chance to check the digest but I heard that someone had asked about Chung Bong stuff. Ask again, I may have something for you. Young Eun ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:41:40 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: demotions/expulsions Jamaica asks: <> Yes, my instructor has expelled a number of BB students who failed to keep up with their training, or who were assigned to teach certain classes but failed to do so. His belief is that with rank comes responsibility and if you are receiving free training at BB level in exchange for teaching a class or two a week, you should be in the dojang, ready to teach his curriculum, and maintaining your own training regime. Take Care, Peter M. ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:55:01 EST Subject: the_dojang: demotion In a message dated 99-02-25 19:24:17 EST, you write: << Is demotion even possible in the martial arts? >> The only art I know of that demotes people is Sumo. Some may not consider this a MA, but I do. It is a fighting/combat oriented sport, and there is much more to it than a couple of big guys pushing each other. If a person starts to lose, he can be demoted. The only rank that they don't demote is the highest rank wich is Yokazuna. If a Yokazuna doesn't keep a winning record for his rank, he will be asked to retire. Right now there are only two Yokazunas in Japan. Akebono and my favorite, Takanohana. I think there are a couple that are close. I don't follow it like I did when I lived in Japan. Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:21:47 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: demotion > Has anybody in martial arts (any style) been demoted or stripped of > rank? Jamaica, At our first dojang we knew "IF you wanna wear the belt you GOTTA be the belt." Adults and children alike were expected to act upto rank, meaning that regardless of age more is expected of a blue belt than white because you have spent more time in training. Having said that I have NEVER observed an adult being treated in this fashion. Also, I haven't ever seen the type of behavior that would get me thinking in that direction. So, I ask "WHAT behavior(s) is so outrageous that demotion is both justified and necessary"? On a few occasions I have seen kids have their belt taken away for the night. I once heard (2nd hand story) of a kid who lost his for a week. I have mixed feelings on this issue. On the one hand certain kids should know better b/c they have trained under you for x period of time. Also, the tenets are just as much the art as the forms and sparring, etc., so we ought to show our progress in that area too, IMO. Also, it would take a lot for someone to have their belt taken away for the night b/c you must keep in mind that I have seen only the MOST patient of masters deal with kids. I think also that a behavior must be becoming some type of trend with feedback from the parents for the child to have their belt taken away. Additionally, if we (parents/masters/teachers) draw a line and someone crosses it there should be some consequence. Now on the other side of the coin we should consider several things. First, kids are very into rank. I think we all accept that whether we like it or don't. Secondly to have your belt removed is probably gonna be a public thing so we should be careful to be aware of the humiliation factor. Too much and you probably won't accomplish anything. also, knowing that kids value rank I'm thinking it would be counter productive to hold the belt for more than a class. This would give the master a chance to talk privately with the student and give them back the belt. A very clear line will have been drawn and most students get the point. Just like a parent will say to a child who has been rebuked "I love you but dislike your action/behavior this evening" I firmly believe a master should say something similar. To let the kid know you are welcome here, we're still buddies and you are a special person and I take issue with the BEHAVIOR, not with your personality. When one of these kids got his black belt he said that having his belt taken was very memorable. He didn't think the master would do that unless he cared and wanted to really help him become a better martial artist. Interestingly enough the few times I saw this happen it was always a boy. The girls seem to catch on to "social cues" faster or just seem more content to avoid any punishment. Boys on the other hand (to me) don't seem to see that they are pushing their master till they are given some pushups. Also, it seems that 10 min. later the entire "lesson" is lost and they act up again. IF a girl has something said to her it seems she *snaps to* and is very willing to tow the line for the remainder of the class. Hmmm, curious?? I know a 14 yr. old boy who seems to LOVE pushups. He'll smile while he drops for 20. This of course is more of an attention issue for a later thread but interesting enough, IMO. Dawne ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:24:20 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: grappling > My question is do any of the Hapkido practioners out there have a grapplin > component as part of their curriculum or perhaps do you study it outside of > your dojang (ie maybe a BJJ class or two) ... or you may not even do > grappling at all James, I would like to hear your definition of grappling. It seems that lately I may have had the right concept in mind but used the wrong word to describe it so I wanna be on the same page in this discussion. Thanks, Dawne ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:32:11 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: cooking in the dojang > If I were in a school and wanted to increase my enrollment - before > I would add a fancy gym, a cardio class, etc I would offer (at the same > time as the m.a. class, an Oriental Cooking class. > > Laugh if you will but that is what I would do! :) > > Jamaica Actually, that's not funny its clever. This of course assumes you are set up for that. How many parents/grandparents log hours upon hours of observation time in the dojang? They may want to do it. People in the community may want to do. Afterall -they can get Tae Bo or cardio this and that anywhere or just work out at home. You may want to check into the PBS show Chrsitina Cooks with class. This is a cooking show (with 5-6 REAL people asking questions) done by a woman who changed her whole thinking process when faced with a life threatening illness. I believe she is very influenced by the Japanese tradition. She tells what each food does for you, how the body reacts to it and what to avoid. I bet all you people serious in the MAs would benefit from glancing at her homepage. Check out especially the desserts! Christina's Choice Dawne ------------------------------ From: Ken Brown Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:42:39 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Seoul I am going to Seoul for one week in March. I have not been there since '82, and understand I'm in for quite a shock. I asked Master Ma if he could recommend a dojang for me to visit, as I'd like the opportunity to train while I'm over there. He knows of some schools in Kwangju, Taegu & Pusan, but could not direct me to any in Seoul. I think he was a little hesitant to send me to a school where he does not personally know the Master. There's one student in our school who lived in Seoul for 4 years and said he'd recommend some places, but he trains somewhat irregularly and I'm afraid I may not have the opportunity to get together with him before I go. Does anyone know of a HKD or related school I could visit and train at over there? I will be staying just past Northgate if that makes a difference('m told it can be difficult to get around the city, especially across the river). Also, for those who've practiced over there, how easy will it be to get by with almost no command of Korean? I'm more concerned about in the Dojang than getting around the street and so forth. And what's the proper etiquette for entering a dojang as far as wearing my rank? I'm a 5th gup, which is a red belt in our system, but realize that a red belt may represent another rank in a slightly different system. BKB ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:07:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #115 ******************************** Attention USA WTFers! Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.