From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #116 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 26 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 116 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Grappling the_dojang: Grappling in Hapkido the_dojang: Re: Journals, Logs and Diaries the_dojang: Demotion/Jamaica the_dojang: Instructing Males vs. Females the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #114 the_dojang: Re: Grappling the_dojang: Cooking in the dojang, continued the_dojang: Noble Art/Peasant hobby the_dojang: Re: Wheel kick the_dojang: lineages, etc. Re: the_dojang: Seoul the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Brown Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:36:33 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Grappling I assume by grappling you refer mostly to groundfighting, though I tend to think of grappling as being a little broader, meaning locks, chokes, throws & defenses against such, too. But in the former case, I believe there are some groundfighting techinques in the KSW syllabus, though I couldn't really find them looking through the textbooks I've got(Kimm & Suh). There are some defenses against chokes in there, but from positions that are pretty unrealistic from a "grappler's" point of view(i.e. kneeling facing one another), though there's a section on "Wa Ki" in Dr. Kimm's book that has some stuff that looks somewhat like the BJJ guard(only a handful of techniques though). We have a black belt who studied at the Carlson Gracie, Jr. school here for a short time, and he's shared some of the techniques he'd learned there. He says he still prefers not to go to the ground, and said when he had to defend against the techniques applied to him there, he used judo defenses he'd learned at our school to some effect. Ken Brown, Chicago, IL ------------------------------ From: burdickd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:39:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Grappling in Hapkido James Clark wrote: I've been talking this topic over with quite a Hapkido friends and insturctors. It seems that maybe there was originally a grappling component taught to higher ranks. My question is do any of the Hapkido practioners out there have a grapplin component as part of their curriculum or perhaps do you study it outside of your dojang (ie maybe a BJJ class or two) ... or you may not even do grappling at all. My answer: The Kongshin Hapkido system developed by Grandmaster In-sok Pak includes ground grappling techniques but like other systems of Hapkido it is preferred that you do not go to the ground but rather put your opponent there. The U.S. Hapkido Federation (another style) also includes ground grappling in their system, although this is essentially drawn from Brazilian jujutsu systems ("passing the guard", etc.). I was thinking about why standing grappling was more in favor in the past than ground grappling. My supposition (totally unfounded, I assure you -- I'm just guessing here) is that perhaps on the battlefield whoever fell or got thrown to the ground ended up dead, since the standing fighter could then stab him, kick him to death, or drop large heavy objects on him. On the other hand, viking wrestling (hryggspena) occassionally included the use of a sharp rock behind the opponent's back to break his back if he fell (it was a backhold style). Maybe standing wrestling was just to test strength? Thoughts? Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick ------------------------------ From: Tae Kwon Do Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:52:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Journals, Logs and Diaries In our school the master gives you copies of the forms (poomse) that you have mastered to keep in a binder or file of your choice. Chung. Preadators Rule ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:07:24 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Demotion/Jamaica First, I want to echo the sentiment that Jamaica has been posting some very thought-provoking questions - THANKS. (By the way, do you have a bottomless well of these questions ;-) As far as demotions - I have not seen a demotion in rank specifically, but I have seen those who were elegible for promotion NOT promoted due to attitide, technique, etc. I have also seen an instructor trainee remove their instructor collar due to years of absence! All this maintains the integrity of the organization! In the spirit of TKD... Mark.Lasich@alcoa.com I asked for everything so I could enjoy life. Instead, HE gave me life so I could enjoy everything! ------------------------------ From: Joan Bostic Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:05:59 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Instructing Males vs. Females My instructor often pairs me for escapes and self-defense with a teen aged girl. She's nearly my size and she's less than half my age. It sounds like it should be a challenging pairing for me, but she's wondrously wimpy with these kind of techniques, and although I think the instructor has noticed it, he doesn't change the pairing. I long to be paired with some of the guys who approach their practice with more aggressiveness. It is of no use to me to be grabbed lightly and let go as I begin to make a move. I need to know if I can escape a serious grab. Most of the women in my class just can't or aren't willing to do that. I think instructors need to give heed that they aren't pairing just by gender and size, but by approach and skill levels. It seems to me that my instructor does pair the males that way, but not the females. This is a disservice to the females, but I'm not sure he is conscious he's doing it. Anyone else witnessed that kind of pairing in their dojang? Joan Bostic 8th Gup, TSD jbostic@mr.net ------------------------------ From: Klaus Steinberger Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:00:19 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #114 > From: "Jamaica Power" > Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:57:46 PST > Subject: the_dojang: Demotions > > Has anybody in martial arts (any style) been demoted or stripped of > rank? Nobody I know of. > Have you or has anyone else that you know of kicked someone out of their > school? We did kick somebody out of our school. The reason was, this guy did go crazy, he developed a psychic disease and was dangerous for our other students. We tried to help him, but he blocked it, also his wife blocked this attempts. Some time later he was kicked out of another school affiliated with us, and later on from the third school. Currently I heard he is in the fourth school (also affiliated with us), they keep an eye on him and if he is too dangerous for the other guys he will be kicked out too. > Is demotion even possible in the martial arts? It is very rare, but principally it should be possible. Sincerely, Klaus - -- Klaus Steinberger Beschleunigerlabor der TU und LMU Muenchen Phone: (+49 89)289 14287 Hochschulgelaende, D-85748 Garching, Germany FAX: (+49 89)289 14280 EMail: Klaus.Steinberger@Physik.Uni-Muenchen.DE URL: http://www.bl.physik.tu-muenchen.de/~k2/ In a world without fences and walls, who needs Windows and Gates? ------------------------------ From: Steven Gilmore Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:34:04 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Grappling >Also do any KSW practitioners do grappling and is it part of the KSW >curriculum Yes, grappling and wrestling techniques are taught in Kuk Sool Won in several different sets of techniques, beginning around brown belt level (about 1 year of practice). Sincerely, Steven Gilmore San Antonio, TX, USA ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 06:51:22 PST Subject: the_dojang: Cooking in the dojang, continued Hi Dawne: You so explained what I was trying to say. As always, thanks. Must be one of those female things :) Anyway, about 10 years ago I started teaching Asian cooking to a few of my closer friends. During my travels I really learned a lot about different oriental cooking. Well a few years pass and through PBS and the now "Cooking Channel on Cable"... And we have people like the ever so colorful Yan Can Cook that escalated the adventure. http://www.asianconnections.com/yancancook/save/main.html?ycsbt4 In small town USA to larger cities and classes offered either through private entities or usually tech schools...these classes were packed, and I mean packed - translated money and attendance. (Personal observation). I noticed the number of individuals Men, Women, Grandmoms and dads, and kids that had significant others in martial arts classes asked me more and more for some quick receipes and training. Fun and lucrative. Mostly fun...Pretty soon I had so many people asking me for classes. I usually ran them at 6 to 8 week intervals. There are so many people that sit in the audience of the martial arts practitioners that don't want to take m.a. but would love to learn and contribute back like at fun festivities or to maybe bring a meal to the GM, occasionally. All I can say is tht it definitely makes it more of a fun, family affair where everybody can contribute in different ways. It's worked for me. P.S. All you need is an electric wok or frypan and some fresh ingredients and a good instructor. Maybe just a little room and some counterspace. Nothing big or fancy needed. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Greg Giddins Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:09:29 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Noble Art/Peasant hobby >>Hi, yes it appears that waaaay back in the precursors to "hapkido" there was an "art" or a style which was taught to the nobles etc (apparently the precursor to tkd was taught to the peasants etc from what i am lead to believe )<<< HAa aa. Please, call us "the rabble", "peasants" sounds so demeaning. Haa haa. I love it! Eating my gruel... Greg Giddins ggiddins@ossinc.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:09:15 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Wheel kick In a message dated 2/25/99 7:22:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Chella writes: << Does anyone have any insight on executing a wheel kick? >> The first thing that should move is your shoulders and torso, followed by your hips then the leg. It's like cracking a whip in ice skating. The torso turn actually pulls the leg around. To get the feel of it, hold your hands straight out to the side and then whip them clockwise. Only when your right arm is pointing behind you, let your hip turn and your leg kick. Kurt Rommel tkdkurt@aol.com McLean Virginia, USA ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:17:00 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: lineages, etc. <> Sometimes the problem was simply locating people who knew their school's lineage--in the "old days" (about 20-40 years ago, ha) most people really didn't emphasize this kind of thing. Another frequent problem I had were people who denied studying with an individual, only to have several other sources affirm that so-and-so was, in fact a student under such-and-such. Recording the data,considering the other possibilities, etc. without being offensive or making the first guy look like a liar can be challenging. <> I never ran into this, but did find that a few teachers had actually changed their lineage in later years! Denial was somewhat common among these people, who originally had made one claim to promote themselves, and in a changing political climate, would suddenly claim that there had been "mistranslations", or other mistakes, so that they would not have to share credit with any other individuals. This not only cast suspicion on their original claims, but just about negated the validity of their current claims--with me, at least. I'm sure that their students are happy to accept whatever they are told. . . <> It wasn't the culture as much as the individual. Researching Korean martial arts, I was surprised to find how many people were purposefully vague about their own training, completely unwilling to name their own teachers, or state the tradition from which they descended. It was almost as if they felt there was something to hide. On the other hand, the honest folks really stood out. Concerning this, it was heartening to find that yes, there are actually some who practice what they preach! Oddly enough, it seemed to me after a while that they individuals with the biggest inconsistencies were the ones with the biggest organizations. Now, that's a generalization, I know, because I don't have anyone else's observations to compare mine to (yet). <> Generally, persistency and politeness paid off. There were of course some people who wanted absolutely nothing to do with my research when they found that it was a simple factual search which included theories, data from other instructors (whom they saw as competitors), etc. I didn't run into anyone who refused to talk to me simply because I had disturbed the solace of their sacred hermitage. Some people were very open in the beginning, but upon finding that I wasn't a community reporter who was going to write a basic article on their school (publicity), decided to cancel. . . .such is life. We deal with what we can, and don't worry about the unimportant stuff. I don't feel that this is a lesser study because of who didn't want to participate--their lack of participation dealt no loss to the final result. - --C.J. ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:34:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Seoul > I am going to Seoul for one week in March. I have not been there since > '82, and understand I'm in for quite a shock. > > I asked Master Ma if he could recommend a dojang for me to visit, as I'd > like the opportunity to train while I'm over there. He knows of some > schools in Kwangju, Taegu & Pusan, but could not direct me to any in Seoul. > I think he was a little hesitant to send me to a school where he does not > personally know the Master. There's one student in our school who lived in > Seoul for 4 years and said he'd recommend some places, but he trains > somewhat irregularly and I'm afraid I may not have the opportunity to get > together with him before I go. > > Does anyone know of a HKD or related school I could visit and train at over > there? I will be staying just past Northgate if that makes a difference('m > told it can be difficult to get around the city, especially across the > river). If you're gonna be there in the next few weeks you should start writing, or better yet FAXing, soon. I'd see if your instructor's contacts in the other cities can recommend some dojangs in Seoul as at least you'd then have a connection of sorts. If you still can't find a school let me know and I'll try to help. It is easy to get around the city as long as you're going to/from a place close to a subway station. Seoul's subway system is great. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:35:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #116 ******************************** Attention USA WTFers! Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.