From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #119 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 27 Feb 1999 Vol 06 : Num 119 In this issue: the_dojang: been there, done that the_dojang: Just who is telling the truth? the_dojang: Demotions/Promotions the_dojang: Wok-ing My Dog the_dojang: Sharing the humor with all. Re: the_dojang: Sharing the humor with all. the_dojang: Stories and parables the_dojang: SUMO/Upright Wrestling the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:49:29 EST Subject: the_dojang: been there, done that In a message dated 2/26/99 10:24:30 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Received a gym black belt in Tang Soo Do, moved towns, started Taekwondo, started over at white belt. Then I received a gym black belt in Taekwondo, moved towns, started at a different Taekwondo school , started at 1st gup. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com >> me too - started Chundo kwan - got to 1st gup. moved states Muk Duk Kwan this time, started out 10th gup all over again. Ronda J. Sweet ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:30:29 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Just who is telling the truth? You know what Glenn? Never mind....it would be pointless to even mention it. Well...it has been interesting having this little visit on your List....but I think we both know you didn't really want me to participate. But...it has been fun watching you get irrate. What has been most interesting though...is how you have exposed yourself as being a lurker on the Dojang Digest. Gee Glenn....didn't you already accuse Ray of this very thing? Hmmm...seems to me...you shouldn't be fingerin' any rocks....or calling the kettle any names. > I was the one who tried to help you with your history quest and it was I who > invited you to join our list so that perhaps you could learn something or in > the alternative, answer a question and participate in the discussion. Funny....I don't recall you trying to "HELP". Mostly you just criticised my research and basically didn't tell me anything I hadn't already come across. I will give you credit for the info about Hwang Kee and the Chung Do Kwan. But...as yet...that hasn't been conclusively verified. > I do notice that your tone and demeanor on tkd net is entirely different on > tkd net than it is on Dojang Digest. See...how could you possibly know anything about my postings on the Dojang Digest when you are not supposed to even be on the list anymore? Hmmmmm. Stings when you get confronted, doesn't it? Well...I'm going to send a copy of this to your TKD list and the Dojang Digest. I wonder which list will post it with out any editing to it? Lets conduct a test and see! :-) John Hancock (Never afraid to sign my posting...and I don't lurk) ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 06:28:59 PST Subject: the_dojang: Demotions/Promotions Keeping Jamaica from asking ALL of the questions. E. HartBurlington, VT __________________________________________ (Big Smile)..... Thanks hahaha...I just got back from the doctors office. I have virtual laryngitis! (New medical phenomenon.) He said it's from talking too much and I need to chill out and relax... :) Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 06:40:30 PST Subject: the_dojang: Wok-ing My Dog I CAN cook Chinese and Korean food. I love to do it. So when I ever get my dojang open again....I'm going to offer the occasional Saturday class on cooking Chinese and Korean dishes. Thanks! This is a really good idea to bring in extra cash to the school and get more people in the doors. Man....what a GREAT idea.Damn! Wish I had thought of that first. :-)John Hancock +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Hi John - Don't have to wait until your dojang opens? You could start now and get extra cash to open the dojang. And it appears you travel around a bit. Maybe you could offer it to some of your friends at their dojangs when you visit. Hmmmmm. Now we just have to get you a name - like the Travelling Gourmet or Wok-ing with John... hahah I'm sure you'll come up with something better, you usually do! Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:12:37 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Sharing the humor with all. Hello fellow Digesters. Just thought I'd share this TKD Net posting with you. Some of you I know belong to both list...but others do not and don't get to enjoy the diatrabe of the TKD Net. So I thought I'd share. But first....let me show you a "rebuttal" I recieved in private e-mail (for some reason...a open forum discusion wasn't made......seems to happen a lot that way on the TKD Net) (also...everywhere you see NOTE..I have added those comments in between the dialog for this posting): Subject: Reply to John Hancock's flame From: "glenn" John Hancock: <> Actually, I did want you to meaningfully participate, as I do all the people I invite to the list. Tkd net is a list of active participating posters. We don't encourage people to just sign up and lurk. <> I don't believe I have gotten irate. In fact, I don't believe you've seen me irate. But if you consider insulting the Jewish members of our list with your comments about "ovens" to be appropriate (and then posting a fake address so people can send you hate mail) then I'm sorry and I really don't know what to say to you, other than you need help. For those that don't remember, here's John Hancock's post earlier today: >> Candidate C: is a decorated war hero. He's a vegetarian, doesn't smoke, >> drinks an occasional beer and hasn't had any illicit affairs. >> >> Which of these candidates is your choice?? > >> Candidate C is Adolph Hitler > (NOTE: the above was edited down from a posting by another TKD Net poster and was not my own. Here Glenn has edited the content for posting to his response to my flame as he called it. My comment to the original posting is below) John Hancock: <> In response to this, I wrote to you privately stating the following: "I was the one who tried to help you with your history quest and it was I who invited you to join our list so that perhaps you could learn something or in the alternative, answer a question and participate in the discussion. I did not ask you on to make insensitive remarks which could upset the jewish members on the list. You obviously knew that your comments would upset some, since you put down some fake KU address. I do notice that your tone and demeanor on tkd net is entirely different on tkd net than it is on Dojang Digest." (NOTE: I ask you folks on the Digest.....what is so different about my tone and demeanor here than on the Digest? I mean...aren't I just as hortrotious and politically incorrect with my comments on the Digest? Or have I been slipping lately? JH) Irate? Maybe someone could conclude that, if their only purpose was to troll tkd net and cause trouble. << What has been most interesting though...is how you have exposed yourself as being a lurker on the Dojang Digest. Gee Glenn....didn't you already accuse Ray of this very thing? Hmmm...seems to me...you shouldn't be fingerin' any rocks....or calling the kettle any names.>> What I accused Ray Terry of doing is signing up under a fake screenname (Joe Jones pickick@yahoo.com) and doing things to try and sabotage the list, such as starting arguments, making false accusations, and sending entire digests back to the list. (NOTE: Would the real "Joe Jones" please stand up. ROGLOL) Sort of what you are doing right now. At least you havethe decency to use your real name. And we can also see a picture of you in the April 1999 issue of Black Belt Magazine, where you discuss in detail your confrontations with GM HWANG Kee's son, Master HC Hwang about the origins of the Moo Duk Kwan forms. (NOTE: See...now this one was quite humorous...escpecially how Glenn points out you can "see my photo in the April 99 issue of BB. Heheh. Kinda like saying "here's what he looks like..now go assasinate him. Hehehe. I thought that was a cute bit of sublime psychology). And I don't need to lurk on dojang digest, because for your information, the digests are available on the internet at http://www.escribe.com/martialarts/dojang/ . Sorry, but your conclusions about me lurking on DD is about as accurate as your martial arts research into the origins of the Moo Duk Kwan forms. John Hancock: <> Please DON'T give me any credit. I would rather NOT be associated with your research, anymore than I would want to be associated with Dakin Burdick's research (which is on the same level as yours). <> Hasn't been conclusively verified, BY YOU. The fact of the matter is, GM HWANG Kee was a member of the Chung Do Kwan for six months in 1946 and rose to the rank of 6th Guep White Belt (or in today's levels, green belt) before restarting his Moo Duk Kwan in 1947. That's where the Pyong Ahn forms came from, from GM LEE, Won Kuk and the Chung Do Kwan. Incidentally, that's where the name "Tang Soo Do" came from as well, since the Chung Do Kwan was the first to use that term in Korea. Earlier, GM Hwang called his style "Hwa Soo Do", but after training at the Chung Do Kwan, he starting using the name "Tang Soo Do". John Hancock: <> Please see above. Dojang Digest issues are available at the following website: http://www.escribe.com/martialarts/dojang/ . Feel free to verify it if you wish. John Hancock: <> Well, unlike Dojang Digest, no one reads the posts before they are submitted. And yes, Ray Terry did read my posts and changed words without my permission. When I complained about that, he made it clear that it was his list and he could do what he wanted. Perhaps you don't see anything wrong with a list administrator editing another person's posts without permission, but I do. And maybe you don't lurk, but you do troll and flame don't you? :) AND NOW FOR MY MOST RECENT POSTING: (PS...you might want to have clean underwear handy for this one. :-) You say "Yudanja" and I say "Yudansha" but maybe we could both say "Udoncha". I just love when people put on aires of superiority about the most innane things. Dialects people (Al, Glenn), dialects. There at least 3 dialects in South Korea alone...and that is not counting the number of Old FOlks still using the Japanese/Korean creole that existed pre-1945. You folks seem to take a particular delight in pickin to death my postings. You have a mean spirit behind the front you put on of being so "helpful". Now...as to my Hitler joke. IT WAS A JOKE YOU SMUCKS!! For cryin' out loud. And as to Al's comment about my article. Al....what do you even know about me? Really? How many times have we sat down over a cup of coffee and discussed topics together? The article I wrote that was printed in the April 99 issue of Black Belt was actually written in the early months of 1996. It has been 3 years since it was written. Because of the MA periodical industry's to feed a common reader age of a mean 14 year old reading level, the majority of article space is limited to technique type articles and articles about famous (more or less) personalities in the martial arts. Articles such as mine which are based upon research (and the original article had citations and a bibliography) just don't garner a great deal of publication space...therefore...can sit on the shelf waiting for long periods of time. Second, the article that did appear was heavily edited from the original which was 3 times the length of the version that made it in (no...I wasn't happy about that...but that is the bullet I bite to get published.....I have to accept editing of my articles to fit the space needs of the magazine....even if I disagree with it). Third, well for crying out loud of course I would have written the damn thing differently today. Hell...it was three years ago when it was written. Sure I've come across additional info that I would have put in....but some of you seem to miss the point of the article. Which was to illustrate the search I conducted and the level I went to try to validate comments Hwang Kee had made (given the fellow the benefit of the doubt...even though I just knew I wasn't getting the whole story). I like Tang Soo Do ....er...let me clarify that...I like the ORIGINAL Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do and that is why I have stayed with it so many years. But I don't like not being told the truth. SO sure...to the Soo Bahk Do Hoi...I'm a big pain in the ass. But hey....TKD has a very checkered history and a lot of revisionist history is told about it too. And I WAS aware that the Chung Do Kwan was the FIRST school to open in Korea...and I WAS aware they referred to their art at "Tang Soo Do"...and I WAS aware that Hwang Kee did meet with Mr. Lee many times in 1945....and I WAS aware that Hwang Kee used to call his art Hwa Soo Do and that he change the name to Tang Soo Do after discussions with Mr. Lee on the advise that at that time...the Korean people were familiar with the term Tang Soo Do and didn't have a clue what Hwa Soo Do was nor did they much care. Like I already said...you haven't done anything but state the obvious to me. Glenn, you made comments that if I had conversations with some of the "old timers" I would be...what...better educated? Bubba....do you think YOU are the only person who has ever had a conversation with these "old timers"? They have this invention...they call it a tellephone. It looks like a gourd and sounds like it has a bee trapped in it. If'n ya punch the numbered buttons on the outside of it....ya can talk ta folks what live fur away from ya. Hiyuk Hiyuk Hiyuk. I've spoken to J.C. Shin, Jae Joon Kim, Chun Sik Kim, Ki Whang Kim, Richard Chun and others. So before you go puttin' your toilet up on stiltz....realize there might actually be things YOU are not privy to know and someone else might not feel OBLIGATED to tell you. Now as for this Ray and the Dojang Digest deal. First...whatever occurred between you and Ray ought to stay that way...between you and Ray....I don't give a rat's ass. Second.....you spend a lot more time protesting about Ray than Ray apparantly does about you. Contrary to what you think, you are not a hot topic of discussion in public or private e-mails by and between Dojang Digest members. Frankly...nobody really cares!!! Second.....as to the TONE of my comments being different here on the TKD Net as opposed to the Dojang Digest.....you must not have been reading the "back issues" of the Digest carefully...or you would have realized what a reputation I already have for saying POLITICALLY INCORRECT THINGS. That is me. I'm FUNNY that way. Funny enough I get encouraged to take it on stage.....but I personally don't see myself as ready yet to pursue my living in stand up comedy (maybe after I get a few more HELPFUL tips from some of you folks...I'll have some MA material to ad to my act as well). Anyone who DOES know me...knows I don't take MYSELF too seriously. I don't insist upon being called "Master Hancock" or "Grand Poohbah Hancock" or even "His Celestial Omnipetence" (unless of course I'm in bed with a woman ....how many of you got the joke there). I refused to change my ways for Ray...and I sure as hell ain't gonna do so for you! Which brings up another curious point. In the year I've been reading and submitting to the Dojang Digest....not once has Ray edited my comments...even when he has sent me e-mail in private later disagreeing with or asking me to tone done my razor sharp wit....he still has allowed my post to go through and on to the forum un-edited. So I don't really believe Ray would ever do such a thing to anyone. And as for the Joe Jones thing. Glenn...for crying out loud....Joe Jones is actually Jo Jones....a woman...and I have talked to her. That never was Ray you paranoid twit (and as I have a degree in Psychology...can I recommend to you that they have some wonderful medications now that can help you to live with OCD). Well....have a nice day. OH....and at risk of redundancy...."Podunk, KY" was a jibe at myself. I actually live in a very small town .....yes...in Kentucky. And "PO Box BR549" was a take off on the phone no. Junior Samples always gave out on the show "Hee Haw". Christs....I feel like I teachin' "Comedy 101" here. John "Yes I've had my brisk" Hancock (can't wait to see the e-mail this one generates) ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:51:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Sharing the humor with all. All this occurrrd ~2 years ago. Geezzz... > Well, unlike Dojang Digest, no one reads the posts before they are submitted. And yes, Ray > Terry did read my posts and changed words without my permission. When I complained about > that, he made it clear that it was his list and he could do what he wanted. Perhaps you > don't see anything wrong with a list administrator editing another person's posts without > permission, but I do. NEVER once did I edit or change a word in any of Glenn's posts w/o his permission. Did I ask because he was about to make a fool of himself, IMHO, yes? But he refused to change a word and so that post went thru. What a very very few do not or will not like is that, yes, I am the moderator of this list. I have killed a few posts, maybe 15 or 20, over the past 5 years because they (1) continued on with an arguement after I asked it to be taken to private e-mail, or (2) a comment was made which I thought was potentionally slanderous, or (3) an unnecessary attack was made. Do what you will in private e-mail, but this is a moderated public forum else we are no different than rec.martial-arts. Now, lets get off the tkd-net thing and back to KMA. Those that want to join the tkd-net should be able to find the subscription info via the search facility of http://www.martialartsresource.com. I have published it here at least a couple of times. There is plenty of room in this Internet world for two KMA discussion lists and I continue to wish them the best. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:22:49 PST Subject: the_dojang: Stories and parables By displaying this "empty cup" attitude said student has won my respect and I will place them in a class where I sense they will do their best. SE Silz ____________________________ I have been following and attempting to learn this "Empty Cup" term on another forum. There have been various personal expressions on this term which have been interesting. Someone else eluded to a parable about cups. Can you provide more information about this philosophy? Other thoughts on it. Do you know what parable this is from. Thanks. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com We can't run from who we are, Our destiny chooses us. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:04:30 PST Subject: the_dojang: SUMO/Upright Wrestling Alain and Dakin a question.. Is SUMO wrestling which Alain referenced and upright wrestling which Dakin referenced the same thing? BTW I am a large fan of original/traditional SUMO wrestling and consider it a martial art, also. Am having a difficult time adjusting to the new SUMO wrestling with the new rules and competitors. Some are outstanding but some... well let's just say it is hard for me to watch them throw sand because you can see in their face and how they throw the sand that it means absolutely nothing to them other than a necessary and cumbersome action. http://www.magma.ca/~sumo/bashtaka.htm http://www.magma.ca/~sumo/bashakeb.htm Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com We can't run from who we are, Our destiny chooses us. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:08:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #119 ******************************** Attention USA WTFers! Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.