From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #136 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 7 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 136 In this issue: the_dojang: the second portion of my black belt test the_dojang: Re: eyes/astigmatism the_dojang: Re: balisong thanks the_dojang: Re: New vs. Classical TKD Forms the_dojang: Re: Taeguek 7 the_dojang: Taeguk 7 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #133 the_dojang: JH's deliberations the_dojang: RE: Breaking/Holding. the_dojang: Board Breaking/Board Holders the_dojang: Self-Discipline and children the_dojang: challenges in Korea the_dojang: responsibility of board holders the_dojang: Re: Terms the_dojang: RE: TKD FORMS the_dojang: Koryo the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Laura Kamienski" Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 19:44:28 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: the second portion of my black belt test Hello All, Well, I just got home from the 'closed' portion of my black belt test. (Our first degree test consists of three parts: 1) a take home written exam 2) a cumulative physical final closed to only those testing and existing black belts and 3) a physical exam open to family and friends at our regional director's school in Philadelphia) We all passed and will proceed to the next part in Philadelphia in two weeks. It wasn't as bad as I thought it might be. Physically it was much easier than I expected (though no one else agrees with me on this point). Mentally it was challenging and of course I didn't come out of it error free. I definitely could have done better on some things and surprised myself on others. It lasted about 2 1/2 hours total. I came directly home and feel oddly anxious. I thought I would feel relieved, but I don't. A lot to think about, a lot to learn and a lot of training ahead! :^) Laura lkamiens@ptd.net lkamnski@bucknell.edu http://www.students.bucknell.edu/lkamnski http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "The destination is not the purpose of a journey; death is not the purpose of life." -Thich Nhat Hanh ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 21:25:39 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: eyes/astigmatism Kim Jones wrote: << who wears any sort of "clumsy" eyegear during practice or competitions? >> I know some people who wear the sport glasses during class, but they are not allowed to be worn in USTU adult competition. I would guess the reasoning is what happens to a person's foot when they hit your hard "goggles." Sally CBAUGHN@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 21:40:13 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: balisong thanks Thanks Ray, Emil and Alain for the info! I bought a knife as a Christmas gift to myself and have played with it (I have the edge covered in tape-got that tip from my friend at the MA supply store) several times, but need a bit more direction. Take Care, Peter M. ------------------------------ From: "CALLAHAN" Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 21:35:08 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: New vs. Classical TKD Forms > > One of my instructors taught me that in Koryo this physically was a move > > to collect yourself but the action was the representation of the sun and > > enlightenment and should be done slowly and respectfully with quiet > > strength. > > > > See....it is crap like this that makes me not respect these NEW TKD forms. They > are put together like pieces of a puzzle by a retarded person. There isn't a > single move in the CLASSICAL forms that is for just Meditative or Show purposes. > It is no wonder that the majority of TKD practitioners in this country have to > spend 15 years studying before they can halfway keep from getting the floor mopped > with their ass by some guy named stinky that never took a lesson but fought every > day on the playground. > I don't understand how practicing NEW TKD forms vs. CLASSICAL TKD forms has any bearing on ones ability to fight. Wouldn't it be related a little more to the sparring and self-defense practice? > Once...I was practicing with a TKD school and after class I asked several of the > Black Belts (these were 1st, 2nd, and 3rd dans) if they'd like to bring some gear > some night and put on the pad and do some contact sparring. This one black belt > said..."OH no! We couldn't do that. It would be tooo dangerous. I can break four > boards with a side kick. If I kicked you in the ribs it would break them." > AND HE WAS SERIOUS ABOUT THIS. > I almost hated to inform him....I won't be standing bracing my un-protected ribs > for him to kick....and I plan on hitting back unlike the boards. > This is probably true with many black belts in TKD. But, I think it's more because TKD is becoming more of a sport than a practical means of self-defense (which is a completely different and previously discussed thread) instead of which forms you practice. By the way, what are the CLASSICAL forms that you mentioned? I must admit that I practice the currently accepted WTF forms. Chris Callahan "Violence when there is an alternative, is immoral; Violence when there is no alternative, is survival" ------------------------------ From: "CALLAHAN" Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 21:39:35 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Taeguek 7 Mr. Smith I agree with everything you said about the WTF forms and interpretations. I was just wondering if you had any personal interpretations for these particular motions. Thank you very much for your responses. Chris Callahan "Violence when there is an alternative, is immoral; Violence when there is no alternative, is survival" ------------------------------ From: "J. Dudley" Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 22:35:13 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Taeguk 7 We are taught several things about the covered fist. We call it a Sun and Moon block, as someone has mentioned. We are taught to make the block such that the hand that covers the fist has fingers bent only at the large knuckles, that is, fingers not curled at all, not clutching around the fist. The back of the hand and the fingers are roughly at a 90 degree angle, with the angle pointing outward, hand bent little at the wrist. This is so that in case a situation turns hostile, you have those knuckles already out there as a weapon for a block/strike (just jab forward). The other thing we are taught is that this salute is symbolic of our particular school, Mun Moo, or Scholar/Warrior - the fist is the warring part, while if you make the salute as I described and then take the fist away and turn the covering hand's palm to you, your hand is making the shape of an open book. Jane Bo Dan (yes, we call it that. Testing in March - "Discipline Night", and April). ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 23:02:01 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #133 In a message dated 3/5/99 4:16:20 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Also on form competition - is it just me or do you others get >nervous? >> Heck yah. i competed this weekend (3/6) and was nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. i'd just learned koryo the night before...lol. had a wonderful time though! melinda ------------------------------ From: Bernard Eddey Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 12:33:00 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: JH's deliberations > See....it is crap like this that makes me not respect these NEW TKD >forms. ... spend 15 years studying before they can halfway keep from >getting the floor mopped with their ass by some guy named stinky that >took a lesson but fought every day on the playground. At last John! We agree on something! I have sat in on classes at 'new age' (for want of a better term) schools and been amazed at the lack of ability of even the 1st and 2nd Dans. Not just apparent fighting ability but style, technique, power etc etc. I could have taken in 3rd or 4th gup students from 'traditional' schools who would have not only mopped the floor with their arse (that's how we people who speak English spell 'ass' otherwise I think you mean a donkey :-))but the rest of their anatomy as well. As for sparring - I just can't help avoiding being hit! I've been training solo for the past couple of years and can't wait to get back into some serious sparring, roll on October! As for mistakes in forms - while I have never performed a form for competition only for grading - we are taught and teach, if you make a mistake -- stop - go back to chunbi (sp?) - start again. At least then the examiner will know that you do in fact know that you made a mistake and are able to correct it. If you don't do that the examiner has every right to assume that you don't, in fact, know the correct form. To assume that the examiner won't notice is IMHO disrespectul to the examiner. regards as usual Bernard Eddey 1st Dan, Shanghai "I ask for nothing so I do enjoy life." ------------------------------ From: CMPorter@webtv.net (Chris Porter) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 00:13:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: RE: Breaking/Holding. Dawne, after reading your note the first thing that came to my mind was, "bad" holding skills. You said that if the master or the grandmaster holds your son is able to break with no problem, this leads me to beleive that the other holders are not doing it right. I may be wrong, but it sounds to me like more time should be spent of the art of holding. When you hold you must be rigid and allow NO recoil, also you must put TENSION on the board by flexing it in with your hands. If you hold this way "its one pop breaking". Truly the only thing hard about breaking is the mental challanges that we must overcome, the inner fears, but you can't break a pillow it absorbs to much, we break wooden boards because they are RIGID, so if the holder is not going to support this by being rigid and firm, we defeat the purpose of holding. I know that at advanced levels this changes we strive the break the "floating" board but that is a whole different ballgame. I hope this helps and your son is proably doing everthing right. ------------------------------ From: "Emil J. Fisk" Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 13:23:14 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Board Breaking/Board Holders Hi Jamaica and all the rest of you, I just thought I'd relate one of my experiences when it came to breaking boards. I agree with what you said about teamwork and that a lot depends on the person or people holding the board. At a demonstration for a school in my area, I was supposed to break some boards doing various kicks. There were different people holding them, but I trusted most of them as I had worked with them before. There was, however, one black belt I had never met previously. He was supposed to hold the board while I was doing a jumping spinning back kick (sorry, I can't remember Korean terminology). Anyway, it ended up that everytime I jumped, he would let go of the board, and step back, so only one other person was holding the board. Needless to say, after three attempts, the board didn't break, and I ended up looking like an idiot and being laughed out by the entire school. Jamaica, love your posts and the questions that never seem to dry out. Emil Fisk fiskej@usa.net ------------------------------ From: "Emil J. Fisk" Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 13:23:17 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Self-Discipline and children Hi Jamaica, When it comes to teaching children, I think that it is the instructor that matters the most in terms of how classes are conducted and how the children are disciplined for their actions. I've had the opportunity to observe and asist teaching children's classes in Korea, Thailand, Malaysia, and the US. Of all of the above, I must admit that kids in the US seemed to be the best disciplined. I got the impression that they were taking classes for a reason, and that they were very determined in following their training through. The only time I saw kids fooling around was during their breaks, but they'd always fall easily back into class. I have by far seen the worst children in Malaysia. No matter how hard I discipline them, I can't seem to control them. It doesn't matter if they're 6 years old or 16 years old. They're screaming during class, and it takes about 5 minutes just to line 30 students up following a break. Too many classes were interrupted by students misbehaving or fighting with other students, that I just refuse to teach children now (I leave that to my instructor who can't seem to change them either). Whereas adults chose to be in class, it seems like children were forced to be there by their parents, or there just to make friends, or learn how to kick ass, and they were showing that really didn't want to listen. Whereever you teach, there will be a few bad students and a few good students, but I must say that a vast majority of my students in Malaysia were just hopeless. They showed a lack of discipline, they had very poor coordination and execution of techniques, and virtually no stamina. If I were the chief instructor, I'd probably only be left with a handful of students in each of my classes, rather than about 40-70 students in each class. Instead, my instructor and I saw to our dismay students that didn't deserve 8th gup receiving their 1st gup. Believe me, it's not that I'm giving up easily - I put in a lot of effort for a long time without seeing any change. I think the main difference is that when I was a guppie, people were actually afraid of their instructors. Now they just don't see instructors as an authoritarian, yet paternal, figure anymore. Well, that's all from me. Emil Fisk fiskej@usa.net ------------------------------ From: "Emil J. Fisk" Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 13:23:20 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: challenges in Korea Hi, Many have probably heard of the 'death-matches' that were held between Filipino schools, and also the street-fights that took place among the early Hawaiians. I'm wondering if Koreans ever determined who was the better teacher or fighter by challenging others? Would these challenges have taken place within or among the kwans, or even different Korean styles? It's always one way to attract more students.... Emil Fisk fiskej@usa.net ------------------------------ From: Mike Heeney Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 19:08:51 +1300 Subject: the_dojang: responsibility of board holders Jamaica Power wrote, concerning what board holders should know: >direction the grain is going Yes it is important that the board be held with the grain in the correct direction, but surely this is the kicker's domain when setting up the break. >how many knots in the board Why? >how green the board is Again, why? What has this to do with anything? If it is green too bad - the kicker should have brought better boards... >the tilt and direction at which the board is held >for a particular kick; also the height at which the kick is executed. Again, this is up to the kicker to set up the break. All the holder has to do is hold it steady where and how the kicker tells them to. >If you know the competitor you will know the height at which >their kick will land on the board. If the kicker knows what they are doing they should be able to say "My foot will hit here at this height", and make it do so. If they don't have that control, what are they doing breaking boards? Surely the purpose is not merely to swing the leg and hope for something good? >If you have someone from the >audience (at random) they have no indication where the kicker will be >placing the kick. But they will if the kicker is competent and says "My foot will hit here at this height." >The success of a board break is equal to the skill and knowledge of the >person holding the board. In my opinion the success of a break is directly proportional to the skill and knowledge of the person doing the break. Like I said, all the holder needs to do is hold the board how they are told, and not let it 'give' when it is struck. Mike Hamilton New Zealand. http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~mheeney <-- me/myself/I - Taekwondo - Riverdance ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 08:13:03 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Terms >1) Ha-dan makki vs. arae makki >- Different Federations in this case ITF terminology vs. WTF terminology To be more precise, ITF now also use their own terms. For example, "low" is "najunde", "middle" is "kaunde" and "high" is "nopunde". - -- Piotr Bernat dantkd@polbox.com ------------------------------ From: CMPorter@webtv.net (Chris Porter) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 03:30:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: RE: TKD FORMS Hello and thank you all for reminding me how wonderful the art that I train in is!!!! I am lucky enough to be able to train in Moo Gong Do (TM) founded by Grandmaster Dae Yong Kim. As all of you have been dicussing the how and why of certain TKD forms I have noticed a lot of confussion and /or different reasons as to the how and why of a given form. You all have reminded me of how lucky I am to be training with the man who created the(MGD) forms, so nothing is lost to interpatation. Whenever we learn a new form not only are we taught the physical movments but firsthand we learn the reason behind the movments,as well as the underlying mental and spiritual lessons. Good luck with your training and thank you for reminding me of the value of Grandmaster Kim and his art. IL Dan/Jo Gyo Nim in the World Moo Gong Do Assocation. Moo Gong Do,Moo Gong Do,Moo Gong Do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: burdickd Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 08:38:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Koryo Koryo is the ancient name for unified Korea, and the shape of the form is the Chinese character for soldier, so it is a nationalistic form. It is also is extremely easy to interpret as self-defense techniques. For example: At the start, block the strike, jointlock, kick the knee, strike head and gut, sweep, finishing strike, return to ready position. Also, Koryo itself means "High [and] beautiful" and I use to this get my students who like to box to keep their heads up. Lastly, when we start the form we say that we are looking at the moon, not the sun as Jamaica's instructor says. I think perhaps this might have to do with viewing the moon rather than its reflection (truth vs. illusion). Take care, Dakin ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:17:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #136 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.