From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #137 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 7 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 137 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Instructing males vs. females (self-defense) the_dojang: Upon Being Humbled! the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #136 the_dojang: More Details on Board Breaking the_dojang: My elbow hurts the_dojang: Re: Flooring surfaces the_dojang: Taeguek 7 the_dojang: Handbook the_dojang: Re:training/dinner/Kim the_dojang: Re:breaking/Chris the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #135 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #136 the_dojang: forms and fighting the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paul Rogers Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 12:17:59 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Instructing males vs. females (self-defense) >>> My instructor often pairs me for escapes and self-defense with a teen aged girl. She's nearly my size and she's less than half my age. It sounds like it should be a challenging pairing for me, but she's wondrously wimpy with these kind of techniques, and although I think the instructor has noticed it, he doesn't change the pairing. I long to be paired with some of the guys who approach their practice with more aggressiveness. It is of no use to me to be grabbed lightly and let go as I begin to make a move. I need to know if I can escape a serious grab. Most of the women in my class just can't or aren't willing to do that. I think instructors need to give heed that they aren't pairing just by gender and size, but by approach and skill levels. It seems to me that my instructor does pair the males that way, but not the females. This is a disservice to the females, but I'm not sure he is conscious he's doing it. Anyone else witnessed that kind of pairing in their dojang? <<< This thread is probably dead by now, but it's near/dear to my heart, so I feel compelled to toss in my tuppence...8?) Our school generally pairs up by size for self-defense. However, I love it when I'm paired with a smaller female. Having a young daughter of my own, I take self-defense training very seriously. I believe that releasing a grip easily just to let someone complete a technique does no one any good. We had a self-defense seminar a while back, and one of the high school girls wanted to try her technique on me (she's about 5' 0", while I'm 6' 2", 185 lb.). It was a lapel grab defense, where she would hammer fist the pressure points on either side of lower arm to effect a release. Well, I grabbed her lapel, and she popped my arm. No reaction. I encouraged her to try again, harder. Better, but still no release. Then, I mentioned that our instructor says to just whale on the technique until the person releases. At that point, she slammed both fists into my arm over and over, til my arm went numb, and my grip weakened. Although it hurt a bit, I felt that it was a good learning experience for both of us, much better than if I had just released at the first pop. I figure that ladies are much more likely to be accosted by someone my size, who doesn't want to let go, than someone their size, who'll release at the first attempt at technique. Duh. Paul Rogers, Round Rock, TX (ATA) ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 12:06:48 PST Subject: the_dojang: Upon Being Humbled! Indeed I do love also being the student. And these forums certainly put me in this position. In a recent post I asked how "others did it" regarding being tired and going to their martial arts classes and tournaments. I received a private email from someone I really very much respect and she is considerably chronologically younger than me, but intellectually I think she has existed for a 100 years :) She brought to my attention that her life revolved around TKD not vice versa. That going to classes etc was not an option for her but part of her life. I had to laugh at myself because I can't count the number of times I have told somebody that you make time and energy for those things that count most to you in life, and that martial arts is so ingrained in my life. So to my wonderful email friend and youthful martial artist with depth way beyond her years, thank you for the tap on the head to this issue and others. I continue to learn. Keep the emails coming! Thanks also to others regarding the interpretation of Koryo and the symbolism for the moon as opposed to the "sun" as I was taught. Since I am not a historian I only related what I was taught. Also, if anybody has been following some of my threads regarding the manner in which some instructors teach you will know that I do not hold some of my past instructors in the highest esteem. Thank you again for the correction. Appreciated the input. Re: Board breaking. Thanks for the info. I'm still out on that one. I think it should still be a team effort but I am rereading Mike Hamilton from New Zealand's post and still thinking on it. I have to say though I've seen too many absolutely incredible board breakers fail because of the board holders and the boards. And also receive injuries. Really liked your post but I think this is what hampers someone from winning the medal and someone from losing. I wish I could say that I believe it is entirely the responsibility of the breaker but at this point but I can't. I continue to learn. But if your goal in martial arts is to set up and win medals for your breaking techniques I still maintain that it is more than the board breakers responsibility. I have seen more breakers win that bring their own entourage than those that have people picked randomly. Frequently at tournaments they are put into rush situations where even instructing the board holders how and where they will be kicking is put into "seconds of training." And sometimes more than one competitor is set up at one time within the ring. Well I would still appreciate more input on this topic for sure. Thanks! Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 14:18:11 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #136 > I don't understand how practicing NEW TKD forms vs. CLASSICAL TKD forms has > any bearing on ones ability to fight. Wouldn't it be related a little more > to the sparring and self-defense practice? DUHHHH! So sparring and self defense have no bearing on fighting ability then?See....it is no wonder so many black belts get embarassed in their first real fight with this kind of thinking. This is probably true with many black belts in TKD. But, I think it's more > because TKD is becoming more of a sport than a practical means of > self-defense (which is a completely different and previously discussed > thread) instead of which forms you practice. Aaahhhhaaa! But there is the rub. So many instructors call what they teach a 'Martial ART'....and not a "SPORT" and lead students to believe these techniques will be sufficient in real scrape your knee, gravel in your face...get thrown through a window fight. And anyone who knows...knows the "SPORT" technique and the new TKD Tae Geuk Forms won't help you when this happens. > By the way, what are the CLASSICAL forms that you mentioned? I must admit > that I practice the currently accepted WTF forms. > > Chris Callahan Well...the classical forms are the ancient forms...such as Bal Sae, Ship Soo, Kong Sang Koon. Even the the more modern Pyong Ahn forms have more meat and potatoes in them than this Tae Guek garbage. Every movement of every one of these Hyung has a meaning, a use, a purpose. The classical forms are full of Keupso Chirigi and grappling and throws. A strong and serious study of these forms does prepare one to actually be able to fight. If you do forms but never use the moves from your forms in sparring and fighting.....you either are doing forms without meaning, doing forms wrong...or may be you are sparring wrong! The honest and propietous thing to do...is always tell students "this is sport and won't necessarily be of any use outside the sporting arena", but on the other hand, "THIS is real and practical....and when you practice...you'd better be of a serious mind and be ready to do ANYTHING...and I do mean ANYTHING necessary to SURVIVE" or else you are just preparing them for a disappointment down the road, an "arse" whippin' at the least....or getting sized by the mortician at the worst. OK...bring on the insults now to my post. (this is where I get mail from Glenn either unsigned...using an alias or privately so he won't have to defend his critique of me to anyone but me) JOHN HANCOCK > At last John! We agree on something! > > Bernard Eddey > 1st Dan, Shanghai And they say there isn't intelligent life out there. Obviously...there is some in Shanghai. > Many have probably heard of the 'death-matches' that were held between > Filipino schools, and also the street-fights that took place among the > early Hawaiians. I'm wondering if Koreans ever determined who was the > better teacher or fighter by challenging others? Would these challenges > have taken place within or among the kwans, or even different Korean > styles? It's always one way to attract more students.... > > Emil Fisk Mr. Fistk....at least as late as 1985, there were still challenge matches be held in Korea surrepitiously. My instructor was involved in one in the Spring of 1985. Yes...some of these do have deaths occuring out of them. The one in the Spring of 1985 did. And because of this....some police had to be paid off...and my instructor had to leave the country for two years and live in Malaysia. They have a funny way of resolving differences over there........and circumventing the judicial system in order to maintain a feudal code from thousands of years back. JH ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 12:38:33 PST Subject: the_dojang: More Details on Board Breaking >direction the grain is going.Yes it is important that the board be held with the grain in the correct direction, but surely this is the kicker's domain when setting up the break. >how many knots in the boardWhy?>how green the board is Again, why? What has this to do with anything? If it is green too bad - the kicker should have brought better boards... Mike H. from New Zealand +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Well lots of tournaments do not permit you to bring your own boards and so you or someone else much shuffle through a mound of boards and select the best from the worse (and you usually pay extra for these boards). I just think it can give you the competitors edge as would a new pair of running shoes. If your goal is to win sometimes an edge is all it takes, just like in sparring. And if you're paying for the boards I just think it's a good idea if someone knows how to pick out a better board from a worse board. I have also been instructed at tournaments that the "A" pile of boards which are considerably drier and cut to accurate proportion are to be reserved for the younger competitors so parents wouldn't complain so much; and the "B" pile somebody just brought in from the lumberyard because they didn't have enough boards..will be reserved for the higher ranks. (Still paying for them.) But I know I used to buy my own boards from the lumberyard and have them cut to size and have people hold them for me so I could practice. Then when I got to tournaments and the boards were anything but pine of a better quality well it really did make a difference for me. I must say I think some of them were very hearty oaks. And holders did make a difference because not all of them could follow directions even when there was time for instructing but usually there was so much noise and confusion it made matters worse. Often times there are not even enough volunteers in the audience and so much of the time the breaker had a hard enough time even finding enough people willing to hold the boards and then they would be put on the "1 minute" call or forfeit. It was disheartening. Sometimes they had to change the break they wanted to do or eliminate a break. Sometimes injuries occured from a holder pulling back or dropping the board. Perhaps the tournaments I have been at are not as consistently run as yours. I do also know I have had GM's that believe a blackbelt should persevere under all circumstances. But to me competition is competition and gaining that small edge is what it is about. And the situations I have talked about occurred at all belt ranks. I also look at breaking more in the context of physics than I do mind over matter. So I suspect that influences my way of thinking about the breaker and the holders. Thanks for letting me elaborate. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:53:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: My elbow hurts > > By the way, what are the CLASSICAL forms that you mentioned? I must admit > > that I practice the currently accepted WTF forms. > > Well...the classical forms are the ancient forms...such as Bal Sae, Ship Soo, Kong Sang Koon. Even the the more modern Pyong Ahn forms have more meat and potatoes in them than this Tae Guek garbage. Every movement of every one of these Hyung has a meaning, a use, a > purpose. The classical forms are full of Keupso Chirigi and grappling and throws. A strong and serious study of these forms does prepare one to actually be able to fight. Given. However, I've found few instructors that understand the meaning behind the techniques in these older forms (I would not term them ancient as they are all/most [most likely] only three hundred years old, or less). Why? In the original printing of Funakoshi's Ryuku Kempo (1920s?) the stand-up grappling applications from the kata where shown/pictured. However, when it came time for an English language version these grappling applications were then pictured as simple blocks. Many instructors just do not know that, e.g., your basic down block is more importantly an elbow break. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 16:26:39 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Flooring surfaces I definitely agree with Ronda about what NOT to use for floors... while I am lucky enough not to have a bum knee at the age of almost 17, I have had my mishaps involving me and the floor. At the Youth Center where I train at, it's got a wood paneling that gets waxed every year. Put any liquid on it, and you've got disasters waiting to happen. I've slipped and busted my knee, elbow, and almost my face because I walked right through a little puddle of water/sweat. It's even uglier when doing kicks, especially aerials. Not too long ago we had to clear people AND kicking shields. The last two shields had a sizeable gap and a tiny pool of water in between. I go up to do a pretty good flying jump side kick only to come down too early and have my foot land in that puddle of water and keep going forward. Ouch. Avoid waxed wood floors at all costs. The best kind of floors mentioned are the ones with the cushion-y mats laid over them. Has anybody been to the Georgia Games in '97? I prefer floors like that because it's harder to slip and fall when water hits it and you walk over it. Just preferences... Kim Jones addidastkd@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Mark M. Smith" Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 17:28:39 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Taeguek 7 Mr. Chris Callahan, Thanks for your note. I do not have any personal interpretations for these motions (Teaguek 7 - covered fist). As I mentioned I have not found any widely accepted interpertations or a set of interpretations from an authoritative source. Therefore, I choose not to teach what is not widely accepted by peers. Taekwondo has enjoyed a period of explosive growth in the last 25 years. I believe part of this success is do to the many innovations in Taekwondo. While the core techniques of the art are the same, the footwork, and combinations, especially those used in competition have been evolving. This leads to my question. What do people think of innovation in the Martial Arts? Should there be a process by which innovations are accepted into the art? Should this be based on acceptance by atuhority (ie Kukkiwon, etc.) or peer review? Is there a danger of innovating to quickly? Can innovations obscure the essence of the art? What do people think? __________________________________________________________ Mark M. Smith 4th Dan #5041993 Premier Taekwondo tele: (603) 424-3633 280 Daniel Webster Highway fax: (603) 672-1920 Merrimack, NH 03054 email: msmith@p2software.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 17:44:09 EST Subject: the_dojang: Handbook First, I'd like to thank all of you for your responses. Some specific replies: To Stan Lim: I have no problem with sharing the handbooks with the Digest, although I do wonder what Ray Terry would make of such a long post! I can certainly keep everyone up to date on my progress, if there's interest. Actually, my school's focus is hapkido, not tae kwon do, but your point is well taken: the students should know what it means and its basic history. There are a couple of students I have long suspected of thinking hapkido is a Cockney form of akido. To J. Bastic: I like the idea of including the structure of a typical class. To Jamaica Power: I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who winces when I see a trail of old belts strewn across the floor of the dressing rooms. As of right now, these are the topics I would include: bowing; shoes; food and drink; uniforms; belts; attendance cards; typical class; first test; assistant instructors; rank; kiyaps; handing objects back and forth; equipment; contact (light, medium, heavy); cleaning the dojang; preparedness to train; importance of regular attendance; useful Korean words and phrases; and practice. JB ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 19:17:26 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re:training/dinner/Kim Since I'm still under the wing of my parents, dinner during the week is pretty much whatever my mother prepares or leaves instructions for as the meal of the evening. Class for me starts at 1745 so I have to eat right when I get home (approx. 1515) or at least an hour before class so that I don't have any gastrointestinal problems (approx. 1645). But then I have this bad habit of eating when I get home at about 2015 because I get hungry again... generally, it is a VERY bad idea to eat after 1800. Kim Jones Hmm, how many people think Kim is from a military family - raise your hands :) I completely agree with you about eating after 1800 (thinking 6pm in my head, ah ha ha). The problem for ME is that a great work out can give you the munchies! I get home around 8:30 (2030 in Kim-time :0) and have had dinner a long time ago. Only sheer will power keeps me from grabbing something so late. MY question. For you fitness buffs do you approach diet differently because you are athletes? Do you lessen protein or increase it? What do you do with the carbs on training days? Thanks, Dawne No1IDIC@aol.com ***************Will Gregg London please stand up?? Every email I send you gets bounced back as a mailer demon, what ever THAT is.****************** ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 19:30:26 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re:breaking/Chris snip << I may be wrong, but it sounds to me like more time should be spent of the art of holding. When you hold you must be rigid and allow NO recoil, also you must put TENSION on the board by flexing it in with your hands. If you hold this way "its one pop breaking". Truly the only thing hard about breaking is the mental challenges that we must overcome, the inner fears, but you can't break a pillow it absorbs to much, we break wooden boards because they are RIGID, so if the holder is not going to support this by being rigid and firm, we defeat the purpose of holding. I know that at advanced levels this changes we strive the break the "floating" board but that is a whole different ballgame. I hope this helps and your son is probably doing everything right. >> Thank you Chris. It does help. This is the primary reason why I am RELIEVED to have never been asked to hold someone's board. FWIW, other 6 year olds break just fine with any of the holders. My son I think needs the confidence to go into it with more power. Now me, I SUCK at sparring but boy can I break some boards. Unlike my almost 7 yr. old I can hit something. I don't think twice about it. Of course he hasn't yet gotten to the stage where breaking is a rush, almost like what people says drugs make you feel. But to find the silver lining breaking for him IS very mental and exercises his spirit. The other kids (6-8) do it almost as a routine chore. Dawne ------------------------------ From: Peter Ling Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 20:10:28 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #135 See....it is crap like this that makes me not respect these NEW TKD forms. They are put together like pieces of a puzzle by a retarded person. There isn't a single move in the CLASSICAL forms that is for just Meditative or Show purposes. It is no wonder that the majority of TKD practitioners in this country have to spend 15 years studying before they can halfway keep from getting the floor mopped with their ass by some guy named stinky that never took a lesson but fought every day on the playground. Once...I was practicing with a TKD school and after class I asked several of the Black Belts (these were 1st, 2nd, and 3rd dans) if they'd like to bring some gear some night and put on the pad and do some contact sparring. This one black belt said..."OH no! We couldn't do that. It would be tooo dangerous. I can break four boards with a side kick. If I kicked you in the ribs it would break them." AND HE WAS SERIOUS ABOUT THIS. I almost hated to inform him....I won't be standing bracing my un-protected ribs for him to kick....and I plan on hitting back unlike the boards. OK..so I pisses some of you off with my statements. YOu should expect that from ME by now (just ask Glenn - ha!). But I can't stand to see people led down a path that will get them hurt in the worst way and lead to a lot of humiliation and disappointment when it can be prevent. JH I began martial arts training in ITF Tae Kwon Do about 15 years ago in England. The school was run by a 3rd degree who, though devoid of any "spiritual" understanding of the art, had clearly been a bruiser at school. As the character of the instructor determines the type of students that are attracted, the school was full of black belts who lived for sparring class in order that they could use the lower belts as target practice. I used to get home every night covered in bruises and cuts from people's uncut toe nails -- yuck!! However, the forms were all "traditional" and I did eventually learn to fight. And just as well as I once had to fight off two muggers in London. I am now a 2nd Dan in a WTF school in the US. The Master is a 6th degree Korean who, though traditional in many ways (focus on discipline, 100% effort at all times, etc), is centered on the sports aspect of Tae Kwon Do. He regularly has gold medalists at the Junior Olympics and State Championships. Where the children go, the parents soon follow. As a result, the school has many entire families which train alongside eachother. There are construction workers, undercover cops, lawyers, bankers, school teachers -- you name it. The new WTF forms that we learn are both simplistic and, to my mind, badly presented. I am sure most people look on them as some sort of dance or aerobics rather than ritualised combat. And yes, there are many moves which "seem" to be superfluous. I do not however presume that to be a fact. I heard somewhere that in the old days you had to train for years at forms until they'd let you spar. With these forms no one would ever stick around. However, I also know that not everyone in the school wants to fight to the death every class (or any class). Many people dread the idea of sparing or of a JH showing up at class asking if anyone wants to go one on one after class. And that's with all the padding. It's a fine line between business and martial arts and the business part suffers every time that someone gets hurt. I've seen people leave after several incidents. Finding an MA school that suits you is like finding an internist. It's the same with styles and forms. For myself, as I get older and want to enjoy training with my wife and kids, WTF (warts and all) suits me just fine. PL ------------------------------ From: mich3349 Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 20:00:03 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #136 Hello to all. I am a 1st Dan at a traditional school using the ITF forms. I wear eye goggles and am fifty years old. I also agree that a bad board holder can really ruin a persons breaking attempts. Mike the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 7 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 136 > > In this issue: > > the_dojang: the second portion of my black belt test > the_dojang: Re: eyes/astigmatism > the_dojang: Re: balisong thanks > the_dojang: Re: New vs. Classical TKD Forms > the_dojang: Re: Taeguek 7 [525 lines deleted. Do not send issues of the digest back to the list.] ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 18:35:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: forms and fighting Regarding old vs. new forms in TKD or other arts... IMHO, if one wants to learn to defend themself on the street, i.e. to fight, there is only one way to do that effectively. That is to hit and be hit. Sparring isn't street fighting, but it does involve that one very important component of fighiting. Learning forms is all well and good. For many it may be all they ever want to do, and more power to them. After all, the martial arts is about more than just learning to fight. But one should not think they are an effective fighter just because they are a forms master. They may be, however, they very well may not be. Again, IMHO. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 18:36:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #137 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.