From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #138 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 8 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 138 In this issue: the_dojang: partners the_dojang: taegeuk 7 and koryo the_dojang: Korean wrestling Re: the_dojang: Korean wrestling the_dojang: NEW TKD forms vs CLASSICAL forms the_dojang: re: Korean Terminology/Carsten Jorgensen the_dojang: Re: V6 #137: original applications Re: the_dojang: Re: V6 #137: original applications the_dojang: Re: korean/sino korean the_dojang: Re: judging and forms the_dojang: Re: sources for symbolic interpretation the_dojang: tearing a form and stil winning. the_dojang: Not trophies and not medals.. the_dojang: RE: Terms the_dojang: Forms (i.e. "My dad can beat up your Dad") the_dojang: Thank You For Taeguk 6 Help the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 22:19:53 EST Subject: the_dojang: partners At that point, she slammed both fists into my arm over and over, til my arm went numb, and my grip weakened. Although it hurt a bit, I felt that it was a good learning experience for both of us, much better than if I had just released at the first pop. I figure that ladies are much more likely to be accosted by someone my size, who doesn't want to let go, than someone their size, who'll release at the first attempt at technique. Duh.>>>>>> By the same token, people in our class hate to be partnered with me since i "cheat". I am only 5'1" (almost) and even most of the kids are bigger than me. At one time i just did the drills the way they were taught but after one of the female black belts whined that this stuff worked in class but when she tried it on her husband, it never worked, I changed how i handle these classes. Basically, I don't let go - or i do the unexpected and even some of the bigger guys can't escape my holds - simply because they don't know what to expect and then are miffed when i don't follow the program (I am sure this is a BIG surprise to you all). But I feel that since the element is surpass is already lost in the planned program, you need to be prepared. To make the others feel better, he then lets me try it on him and it NEVER works (He is also 6'1" and weighs a lot more than me. And he reminds them that while we are expecting this or that counter to the hold, someone who grabs you isn't. Which is true. Ronda J. Sweet ------------------------------ From: "Emil J. Fisk" Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 11:43:58 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: taegeuk 7 and koryo Alright, I thought I'd have to throw my crap in about these forms. I always thought that the covered fist was about having the knowledge and ability to inflict pain on people, but covering the fist showed restraint and consideration. I found one of my books by Kim Jeong Rok (Kim being the family name) and he says that taegeuk 7 "teaches that a man should have good judgment and should have contemplation, and shouldn't act hastily. The principle is applied when the wisdom of knowing when to stop, and when to procede with an action......" Although it was a long time ago, I believe that I learned the beginning joonbi stance in Koryo was symbolic for some mountains in Korea. Which mountain, I can't say, or what the salute was for, but I'm assuming I just don't know anywhere close to enough about Korean culture, history, or mythology. As for the slow movement in taegeuk 6, which I believe is movement 11, I still can't figure out what that is. It would seem kind of useless for a block since the motion is so slow. Even though I'm in WTF and do the new forms, I still like Japanese forms better. Emil Fisk ------------------------------ From: "Emil J. Fisk" Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 11:46:02 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Korean wrestling Is there any form of Korean wrestling? I realize that judo is very popular in Korea, but I have this vague memory of something similar to wrestling and judo, but it was an older Korean style. Does anybody what I'm talking about, and what the differences would be between this and Japanese styles of grappling? Emil Fisk fiskej@usa.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:01:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Korean wrestling > Is there any form of Korean wrestling? I realize that judo is very popular > in Korea, but I have this vague memory of something similar to wrestling > and judo, but it was an older Korean style. Does anybody what I'm talking > about, and what the differences would be between this and Japanese styles > of grappling? There is Ssirum, related to Mongolian wrestling. Some claim that Sumo comes from this type of grappling. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 23:03:38 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: NEW TKD forms vs CLASSICAL forms Master Hancock wrote: See....it is crap like this that makes me not respect these NEW TKD forms. They are put together like pieces of a puzzle by a retarded person. There isn't a single move in the CLASSICAL forms that is for just Meditative or Show purposes. It is no wonder that the majority of TKD practitioners in this country have to spend 15 years studying before they can halfway keep from getting the floor mopped with their ass by some guy named stinky that never took a lesson but fought every day on the playground.... Come on John, why are you holding back? You're getting mellow in your old age - go ahead and open up and tell us how you really feel . Master Mac (another one who practices the superior Classical forms) TANG SOO! ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:16:41 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: re: Korean Terminology/Carsten Jorgensen Regarding your comment: >>Yes, in Korea there are two words for pretty much everything, a "Sino-korean" and a "Korean". So for instance numbers can be "hanna, dul, set" or "il, i, sam" From what I understand, "hunna, dul, set, net, dasoot, etc." is equivalent to saying "one, two, three, four, five, etc." while saying "il, i, sam, sa, o" is more like saying "first, second, third, fourth, fifth". So, at least in this example, while the terms are similar, they really do refer to something somewhat different! Thanks. Mark.Lasich@alcoa.com I asked for everything so I could enjoy life. Instead, HE gave me life so I could enjoy everything. ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 09:38:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #137: original applications Are the original illustrations still available anywhere? >In the original printing of Funakoshi's Ryuku Kempo (1920s?) the stand-up >grappling applications from the kata where shown/pictured. However, when >it >came time for an English language version these grappling applications were >then pictured as simple blocks. Many instructors just do not know that, >e.g., your basic down block is more importantly an elbow break. Tang Soo! Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@cyberenet.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 06:59:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: V6 #137: original applications The book can sometimes be located via interlibrary loan. Ray > Are the original illustrations still available anywhere? > >In the original printing of Funakoshi's Ryuku Kempo (1920s?) the stand-up > >grappling applications from the kata where shown/pictured. However, when > >it > >came time for an English language version these grappling applications were > >then pictured as simple blocks. Many instructors just do not know that, > >e.g., your basic down block is more importantly an elbow break. ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:30:48 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: korean/sino korean <> i thought the difference was that one set was cardinal and the other was ordinal. melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:30:47 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: judging and forms <> nah, i judged some forms competitors this weekend and didnt mark down if their forms were done differently. ronda's right. you can tell if theyve learned it differently or if theyve choked or done a wrong move. i wouldnt mark down because of their instructors' error or variety of technique in forms. melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:30:49 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: sources for symbolic interpretation <> i believe turtle press has something on this melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Ron Steele Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 04:45:46 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: tearing a form and stil winning. I don't compete,but attend tourneys with my daughter. At the last one, an AAU where TSD and TKD both competed two members from our school (TKD) got gold medals in forms. Both have what my instructor considers to be non-optimal forms, but both also perform with a great deal of energy and drama. This really brings up the subject that I (being a TKD blue belt) have wondered about. How can such different styles be judged fairly against each other. Not knowing anything about TSD, all, and I mean ALL the TSD folks doing forms just looked sloppy to me. This isn't a criticism, I realize that the styles are quite different. I just don't see how anyone who wasn't very experienced in both arts could fairly judge. My instructor seems to believe, apparently with some justification that energy and drama do count for a lot at tournaments and encourages his students who participate to turn things up a couple of notches. Ron (this is my first post!) ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 08:17:09 PST Subject: the_dojang: Not trophies and not medals.. I was rummaging through my memorabilia and found something that you might want to check out. For one of my competitions I won not a trophy and not a medal but a 5 x 7 wooden plaque. Very nicely done. I remember what a kick it was when they presented it in lieu of a trophy or medal. In the middle of the 5 x 7 plaque is a 3 x 5 poster (of sorts). It has the name of the competition in about 1/4 " letters (some upper and lower case, others in all upper case - BLACK). Underneath the title is a circular globe (black) with another one inside (red) with 2 fighting karate people). Under that in much, much smaller letters is the competition (form) and the placing. Around the 3 x 5 poster is just a tinge of glitter to make it stand out. The entire plaque is shellacked (clear). It's quite cool and actually rather awesome. On the back is attached an eye tooth hanger but I also put it on one of those plate holders. These are little jobbies you can buy for a couple bucks to display collectible plates. So this is just an FYI. Might be nice to run a tournament only with these if you get a price break or maybe for certain categories for something different. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Mika Järvinen" Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 18:20:27 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Terms From: Piotr Bernat Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 08:13:03 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Terms >1) Ha-dan makki vs. arae makki >- Different Federations in this case ITF terminology vs. WTF terminology To be more precise, ITF now also use their own terms. For example, "low" is "najunde", "middle" is "kaunde" and "high" is "nopunde". - - -- Piotr Bernat dantkd@polbox.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello list! First, as a new member in MA world (7th Gup ITF-TKD) I want to thank you all for the great topics and for all information, great source! Now about terminology, it has been quite confusing how much terms differs between organisations and styles. Where those ITF's own terms come from and are they some "new" terminology in example I have never seen anyone (but us in our dojang) use terms like "goro chagi" (hook kick in english I guess) or "bandae dollyo chagi" ("bandae"=reverse AFAIK), I sometimes wonder are these real Korean terms :):) We always taught "najunde", "kaunde", "nopunde" but I see those terms very rarely. OK if someone could clear things out to me (where those ITF terms came from and are they only ITF stuff?)I would be thankful. BTW like "sine-wave" is very ITF thing I tought everybody uses it, to me it's so natural in forms etc. and I found out only we are doing the "sine-wave", yes I'm the new guy in here :) Thanks and keep up good work. Yours sincerely Mika Järvinen mmj@sci.fi ------------------------------ From: Greg Giddins Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:15:32 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Forms (i.e. "My dad can beat up your Dad") I've studied Tang Soo Do, WTF TKD and ITF TKD. (Just qualifying my next statements, not tooting my horn). I love forms, I train for forms, I dream forms, I run forms through my head as I'm waking down the street, I read about them, I practice them, I ask about them... Now, of the 3 sets of forms that I've had exposure to, the Taeguks are my least favorite, but that is probably because they have taken the "role" of training for sparring competition (which I don't do). There most likely are NO nerve strikes, effective joint locks, etc in them, although this doesn't stop some people from trying to "force" some techniques in there. However, "modern" TKD is most always about point fighting, not self defense. And the Taeguks may very well be the best forms to include when training for point fighting. They have more "upright" (point sparring style) stances vs. low (defensive) stances, etc. This has little or no vale to a "classical" martial artist, who doesn't compete, but possibly they are effective for supplementing a competitors training in the ring. The ITF forms are very graceful and flowing, and I am impressed with the amount of thought that went into them by Gen. Choi----he even put out a 14 volume encyclopedia explaing every aspect of his art. (ITF'ers correct me if I am wrong...I have only read his one (very thick) general encyclopedia- a condensed version, about 2 bazillion pages long). I do find some segments of these forms to be a bit cumbersome, but overall they seem to be well balanced between the "sport" and "art" style of forms. . ANyway, the Chang Hon forms seem to be a solid foundation upon which a well balanced art is based upon. And they are beautiful forms, to boot. Althoug the "sine wave" haunts me...haa haa. The Tang Soo forms are completly on the other end of the planet from the Taeguks. They have very little "point sparring" applications, and are designed for actual "self protection at all costs" situations. The "bunkai" (is that the right word?) are indeed all throughout these forms, and the majority of them are very destructive, and certainly not to be used in a "sparring ring". So these forms would not be useful to a competitor as anything other than a "flashy" looking form to help get an extra style point here and there. But, for someone who bases the entirety of their martial art on their forms, these would be the ones to choose. They "run deep", to use an ugly phrase. A lifetime could (and frequently is) devoted to their study and practice, certainly they are forms that give as much back to the practitioner as is put in to them. I guess the value of a form all depends on the application you apply it to. And then there's the issue of instruction..... even the TSD forms can be meaningless if taught by a bad instructor. But that's another post, eh? Greg Giddins ggiddins@ossinc.net Man is at his best in helping others: at his worst in bettering others. ------------------------------ From: "KEVIN A. CRANE" Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 11:49:58 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Thank You For Taeguk 6 Help Hello again! I just wanted to send out my sincere thanks to all of you on the list who took the time to reply to my call for help in learning Taeguk 6. To make a long story short, I competed in the PA State TKD Championship this past weekend at Swiftwater, PA (Pocono Mts...sure was cold!). I did the form in the adult male division and, with a little luck and help from above, won a Gold medal. I certainly could not have done it without your help. I'd also like to personally thank my instructors and friends for the help they provided...Mr. Chris Dyer, Mr. Jerry Chreiman, and Mr. George Bell. Thank you, gentlemen. As an aside, I won a Silver in Breaking and a Gold in Fighting (my poor feet are hurtin for certain!). In all, a good time was had by myself and the rest of the folks from our school. It's always nice to meet and make new friends at these tournaments, too! Again, thank you all very much for the help! Best Regards, Kevin Crane Delaware County (Philadelphia suburb) ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:00:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #138 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.