From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #142 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 10 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 142 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Maryland Bill the_dojang: Pair in the Dojang the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #141 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #141 the_dojang: Re: Forms and Sparring the_dojang: Master Rim's interview with Choi, Yong-sool the_dojang: Do Ju Nim the_dojang: Maryland Bill the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #141 the_dojang: Re: kinooki the_dojang: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Tournament - Dallas, TX - 3/27 the_dojang: Judging Forms Re: the_dojang: Do Ju Nim the_dojang: faking the funk... the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dgordon@sadira.gb.nrao.edu (David Gordon) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:14:23 GMT Subject: the_dojang: RE: Maryland Bill I heard about this once in Virginia that when you become a Black Bely, you had to register yourself. But, I think that has been dropped years ago... I'm sure, being a Black Belt, one would have to explain yourself more then a non-martial artist, if you were involved in an attack on ones self. - -- David, 1st Dan, TKD ------------------------------ From: "Stephen Sanner" Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 09:38:47 PST Subject: the_dojang: Pair in the Dojang Hello I have been reading with interest all your post guys and I must admit that I am learning a lot from them (well done in particular to Jamaica). I wanted to get some help on one thing. My instructor often pairs me with another guy older than me who trained before in a WTF-club before joining our dojang. This guy seems to be unaware of the basic TKD rules. Courtesy: he trains with the same clothes, never showers beofrehand and I just can not do the stretching anymore with him without having nausea. Self-control: close to none, I must say that I am an 8th gup (him 10th) and sparring should be non-contact; he does not care. I started TKD four months ago and I really don't know if I should talk to my instructor about this. I don't know what his reaction might be. Am I asking too much? I must say that other students have been complaining about it as well. What would you do if you had a student coming at your dojang like that? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 12:08:15 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #141 > Melinda wrote: > >slow, kinooki style when required > You've used a term I'm not familiar with. Could you explain "kinooki", please? > Tang Soo! > Scott A. Miller KI NOOKI = The ancient art of getting nooki using your Ki. /-D JH ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 12:34:17 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #141 > I don't know if Mr. Hancock called Dr. Kim, or any of the > other people involved in the development of the Taeguk forms, but > perhaps they could give him more detailed information. Uh yeah..right. Let me ask you. How many times each week do you sit down to coffee with the CEO of the Kuk Ki Won? I'm fully aware of the design intent of the new Tae Guek forms. Their purpose was to replace the older forms, to move away from any associations to Japanese Karate styles, and to move toward a uniquely Korean 'SPORT'. They replace the Pal Gye series which even though they were diverged off the old Japanese styled kata....were not diverged enough. The Pal Gye replaced the Chang Hon patterns developed by Gen Choi (and the replacement of forms he created had more to do with politics than anything else). The WTF is a very Nationalistic organization and has a pattern of historical revisionism. It is humorous to me how often WTF exponents leave out pieces of information that would point back to a Japanese connection to the development of Tae Kwon Do. It is as if they didn't hear the question but heard another inside their head instead so they answer that one. HEHEHEHEH. > Secondly, forms do not have anything to do with fighting ability. Well DUUUHHH! I think that was the point I was trying to make about the Tae Geuk forms. The Classical Hyung however do have everything to do with fighting ability. > They are pre-arranged movements to help a practitioner develope their > technique. I don't know what type of TKD practitioners Mr. Hancock is > use to sparring against, but I do know some that can hold their own > both in and out of the ring. Well...I was talking about TKD practioners as a whole....get this....AS A WHOLE....in this country.......I say.....I say....I say again son, THIS COUNTRY (that's my Foghorn Leghorn impersonation). In otherwords...the statement was a GENERALIZATION across a wide demographic based upon the MAJORITY. I'm not going to split hairs with you that there aren't ANY TKD practitioners in this country who can't "hold their own in and out of the ring". > Remember great forms ability has nothing > to do with great fighting ability. Do you really believe this? See...this is the point I was trying to make. THis is soooo wrong. The forms were intended to be very related to 'great fighting ability'. If you aren't being taught how to make this happen.....then you are not being taught the wholeness of forms training. However, I will have to concede.....with regard to the Tae Guek forms....this wouldn't be possible...as they were never designed with the same paradigm and purpose as the older classical forms were. > So why make a conclusion? (By the > way I do prefer the classical forms to the new taeguks and I practice > TKD as well as SBD, HKD and Kempo. So I am not a die hard TKD player > who is being offended, I am a martial artist who believes that Mr. > Hancock is wrong.) Yeah. You and my Ex-wife. /-D (Doh!!!) JH ------------------------------ From: "CALLAHAN" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:00:54 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Forms and Sparring > Well.....yes...and....no. Sure...you can do some goofy forms..OH...say....like the Tae > Gueks.....and you can spend hours on end practicing grappling and nerve strikes and self > defense techniques to compensate for not getting any of this in your forms training....or > you can practice forms that incorporates all of these elements > already....OH...say.....like the Tang Soo Do forms......and you will learn nerve strikes > and grappling and self defense as well as viable techniques you can put to use in > ...OH...say.....free sparring. > > OK. I'll quit now. But you have to admit.....it is the wonder of ME that makes people > read my posting. I'm sort of the "shock jock" of the Digest. > > ;-) > > JH Perhaps it's my lack of knowledge, when it comes to the classical forms that you referred to, that is influencing my opinion. But, I still don't see how a specific set of forms dictates ones ability to fight as opposed to another set of forms. I train in TKD, HKD and weapons -- and I don't see forms practice influencing my ability to spar. They do introduce me to some different techniques that I may not ordinarily be exposed to, but that doesn't mean I would be able to put them to use should that ever become necessary. How can I go about researching and learning the forms that you are referring to? Maybe this will help me understand. Thank You, Chris Callahan "Violence when there is an alternative, is immoral; Violence when there is no alternative, is survival" ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:53:45 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Master Rim's interview with Choi, Yong-sool Does anyone know about this interview? I read it on the internet today and wanted to know if this actually took place. I'm not quite sure, but some of it doesn't quite ring true. If you have an opinion please let me know. Thank you. Jeremy ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:53:20 EST Subject: the_dojang: Do Ju Nim I am continueally amazed that people can still call Ji Han Jae the founder of Hapkido. I am sure he has some good skills but he only trained with the founder of Hapkido The true Do Ju Nim Choi, Yong Sool for about 3 years. I do not dispute that Ji founded sin moo hapkido but understand it is not the high level martial art that Choi, Yong Sool ( true founder of Hapkido) taught. It stands to reason for he only trained for a short time with the True Do Ju Nim Choi, Yong Sool. I understand that writeing this may not change how people veiw ji. My motive is to let the truth be known as a matter of honor for the true founder Choi, yong Sool and those who still practice his original energy Hapkido. ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:35:47 EST Subject: the_dojang: Maryland Bill In a message dated 3/9/99 10:02:30 AM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << > TKD Quad www.glondon.com - has on-line survey Sport TKD Today - http://hometown.aol.com/ladytkd/rumor.htm ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:31:48 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #141 In a message dated 3/9/99 8:05:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << >> "Classical" Forms? Oh Really? Before anyone really starts displaying their ignorance by talking about so- called "classical taekwondo forms," and their inherent superiority, it might be wise to remember that such forms really do not exist. Taekwondo is a modern invention. While the ITF patterns (Which were taken from the Oh Do Kwan) are proclaimed by many to be the "original, taekwondo forms," they themselves only date back to the 1950s. The Pal Gwe forms of the WTF date from the '60s, and the Tae Geuk series were released in the mid '70s. My point is how can any patterns of an art which is less than half a century old really be considered to be "classical?" While I'm on the subject, I'd also like to address those who claim that competitive sparring is a modern corruption of the "classical" or "traditional" martial arts." From my experience this belief was launched in this country by several masters who ran VERY lucrative schools in which free sparring was either not done, or done only optionally. One such master (now deceased) claimed to have produced thousands of excellent black belts who had never sparred. This master was an extremely vocal opponent of taekwondo's Olympic acceptance claiming that the sporting aspect of taekwondo destroys it as a "traditional martial art." As he was also an articulate publisher of a magazine, many people were influenced to believe his version of history. Funny thing is, however, sparring competitions have had their historical place in the Korean precursors to taekwondo for at least two millennia... long before poomsae or hyung came to be formalized. Therefore, I submit, sparring is the truest surviving form of the "classical" martial arts. Sincerely, SE SIlz ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:14:39 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: kinooki In a message dated 3/9/99 10:04:59 AM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Melinda wrote: >slow, kinooki style when required You've used a term I'm not familiar with. Could you explain "kinooki", please? Tang Soo! Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@cyberenet.net >> no problemo. i'm probably spelling it wrong, but i learned kinooki/kinuki to be a motion with inner power. it is slow, deliberate, and powerful. often, the movement is accompanied by an audible, long, full exhale....sometimes it'll sound like a snake "sssssssss". just depends on the ma or their instructor. for instance, one of the recent topics of the taeguek forms included a discussion of step which involved kinooki. poomse taeguek yuk jang (taeguek 6 form) uses kinooki in step 12, the double low wedge block. (arms start in kind of an x across the chest, then go to full extension, hands in fists a bit out from the sides of the body). the motion is done very slowly, with inner power. in poomse taeguek chil jang (taeguek 7 form), move twelve here also uses the kinooki technique, with the covered fist motion. kinooki is not only about focus and breathing, but also that inner power. it is an internal force that is used in providing your own resistence in a motion. imagine focusing the energy to move a refrigerator across the kitchen. now, imagine that the fridge isnt really there (not a hard stretch, eh?...lol), but that you are using the same amount of focused energy and making the same motion to move that fridge. hope this makes sense :) melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "John Bennett" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:43:41 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Tournament - Dallas, TX - 3/27 Carlos Machado invites you to attend the 1st Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Challenge on Saturday, March 27th, 1999 in Dallas, Texas. This tournament will be held in conjunction with the "Big D", the largest Karate tournament in Texas. The Jiu-Jitsu portion of this event will be conducted entirely by Carlos Machado, with rules and format identical to the standards of the American Federation of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. For more information, please visit the tournament web pages at: http://www.machadojj.com/carlos/bjjc1/ or call Carlos Machado at (972) 934-1316. Thanks! John Bennett ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:03:06 PST Subject: the_dojang: Judging Forms Would like to add a few more alternate views on the forms thread and the judging of forms. So... IMHO.. Taking into consideration the lack of good qualified blackbelt judges at some tournaments I offer the following thoughts. First, if I didn't know a form I would not be a judge. I would bow out. No exceptions. And that brings up the question of what is it to know a form? Well for me there is knowing a form inside and out and then there is knowing (of) a form, ie you can recognize it from it's distinguishing characteristics. Somebody might know Koryo because of the way it starts (with the gateway to the heavens) or the moon/mountains/sun symbol. That doesn't mean a person knows the form. When I say I know a form it means I can tell you what step by number they are on and what the next step is. I can tell the slightest of differences in a good walking stance or what should be a deep stance. Then all the other qualifers like strength, focus, determination, etc are frosting on the cake and will determine a winner if all other things are equal. Colored belts should not be used to judge forms higher than the ones they have learned nor should they judge blackbelt forms, even if they have "learned them on their own." I never look to the competitor for signs they screwed up as others mentioned they do. I don't find this to be an accurate assessment of the competitor. As a judge I determine if they screwed up by how they present the form not the expressions on their face or their body language. First I have seen competitors do forms perfectly and then in a blink of an eye they blank for a second. They lost focus. Now they have two choices. They either take a deep breath and refocus or they bow out and ask to start again. What I have learned is that because they weren't "taught" that these are their two options they do the funny face thing because they are totally embarrassed. Competition is a performance. People act. I have also witnessed people totally screw up and continue to perfection with their performance and if you didn't know the form - people in the audience would never know. They would probably wonder why on earth I scored them low. And that's why you need a good judge. I equate this with a sport like ice skating. Say you are a participant in the stand and you watch an ice skater do a great, even oustanding performance. What you don't know but what the judges did know that during their performance they were supposed to do 2 triple jumps, not 2 double jumps. And the only way people at home know is when the commentator comes and and tells you the info. Looks are deceiving. I witnessed one student that announced the form he was going to do and he did his form perfectly. And we all sat there just staring at him and after a quick consultation we asked the competitor to reclarify what form he just did. Now out of five judges we all agreed what he did was quite perfect but was definitely not what he said he was doing. Going only on his techniques he was quite incredible. I also advocate that if you have novice judges on the panel that high and low scores are tossed. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:04:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Do Ju Nim > I am continueally amazed that people can still call Ji Han Jae the founder of > Hapkido. I am sure he has some good skills but he only trained with the > founder of Hapkido The true Do Ju Nim Choi, Yong Sool for about 3 years. I > do not dispute that Ji founded sin moo hapkido but understand it is not the > high level martial art that Choi, Yong Sool ( true founder of Hapkido) taught. > It stands to reason for he only trained for a short time with the True Do Ju > Nim Choi, Yong Sool. I understand that writeing this may not change how > people veiw ji. My motive is to let the truth be known as a matter of honor > for the true founder Choi, yong Sool and those who still practice his original > energy Hapkido. And how long did GM Choi study under GM Takeda? From the Takeda family, he NEVER studied under GM Takeda. It isn't the time you spend under another Master, it is your understanding of your art, how you teach, who you teach, and the mark you and they leave on the arts. GM Choi is known by the students he left behind. GM Ji may be his greatest legacy. IMHO the art we know of as Hapkido today is GM Ji's Hapkido. The Yawara that GM Choi taught is similar, but different. Again, IMHO. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:11:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: faking the funk... > > Secondly, forms do not have anything to do with fighting ability. > > Well DUUUHHH! I think that was the point I was trying to make about the Tae Geuk > forms. The Classical Hyung however do have everything to do with fighting ability. Sorry, I just don't buy this. Classical hyung (whatever classical means given their recent creation), kata, poomse, etc do not 'have everything' to do with fighting ability. Any type of practice can and will HELP one to develop fighting ability, but as that great sage George Clinton :) said, "You can't fake the funk". To put it another way, I think it was Mike Tyson that said, "They all have a game plan, until I hit them that first time". Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:12:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #142 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.