From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #144 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 10 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 144 In this issue: the_dojang: No offense - Ronda/Melinda the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #142 the_dojang: DoJu JI the_dojang: registering hands the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #143 the_dojang: Light story about forms! the_dojang: Taeguk Forms, Conspiracies and other great things the_dojang: Old Fart Do the_dojang: Re: Jamaica's title IX post the_dojang: Master Choon's Lesson No. 36 Re: the_dojang: Old Fart Do the_dojang: Hapkido-legacy. the_dojang: Banned the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:01:06 PST Subject: the_dojang: No offense - Ronda/Melinda As always I was trying to express my own experiences and relate what I have personally experienced. Your previous posts helped me to recollect those situations and I also threw in some of my own beliefs. I try never to personalize issues Melinda. I didn't put anyone's name in my posts at all. And I did the IMHO thing-ee which I don't frequently do so everyone would know it was friendly. I tried to keep it general and share with you what I know from tournaments I've been at and what I personally would and wouldn't do today. I also prefaced my comments saying in the first paragraph that I understand there is a shortage of judges at tournaments. And quite a few posts have gone through since your postings. I tried to allow adequate time and distance not only for your posts to go through but quite a few others on forms and judging. Accept my apologies. I was trying to share not offend. I wish you well in your referee career and I believe you have an excellent mentor in Master Sweet. I appreciate the clarification however from both you and Ronda. Thank you. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:00:09 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #142 It is apparent you have not met or trained with the founders greatest and by far best student Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo who is located in Daegu Korea a true traditional martial artist. From what I have seen ji has sold out giveing rank away for cash no disrespect just truth. As far as the founder even some of ji's top students claim Choi, Yong Sool as the true founder of Hapkido. It seems that for some strange reason ji thinks that just by proclaiming himself as the founder makes it so, WRONG. We could argue all day long but it doesent change the facts 1. Choi studied with Takeda for about 30 years ( alot longer than 3 years ) 2. Choi and Suh, Bok Sup ( Choi's first Korean student) coined the term Hapkido in 1951. I could go on but I think you get the picture. Master TM ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:43:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: DoJu JI > We could argue all day long but it doesent change the facts 1. Choi studied > with Takeda for about 30 years ( alot longer than 3 years ) Again, from what Takeda's family claims GM Choi studied 0.0 years. What proof do YOU have to the contrary? You have none. As for DoJu Ji, he is easily contacted in New Jersey via the addresses and phone numbers provided here and elsewhere. Feel free to take up your issue of his claim regarding Hapkido directly with the man himself. Or come to the banquet in April. I'm suspect he'd be willing to chat with you about your concerns. He isn't hiding... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Aaron Harmon Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:41:43 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: registering hands I have heard this "registering hands as a lethal weapon" thing from people who have black belts! I have always heard that it is a myth and have asked some lawyers about it who confirmed my belief. I asked them (the martial artists) how they "registered" their hands and they said they went to the police department to do it. I did not pursue it to far because I did not want to insult or upset them (I also did not ask to see their black belt certificate, so who knows whether they were misinformed or...). I am wondering if there are instructors out there who tell this to their students in order the put "the fear of God" in them so that they do not go about beating people up because if they did they would supposedly be arrested for assault with a deadly weapon. The closest thing I can think of is that maybe they had what we used to call a sherrif's card, which basically is certification that you are not wanted for anything. I had to get one to be able to get a job dealing cards and craps in Reno, Nevada. I suppose I can see an instructor wanting to make sure he was not giving any criminals a black belt. BTW, this really only applies to the States as other countries would have different laws. Aaron Harmon 2nd Gup PS. Maybe this brings up another subject. Has anyone ever run into someone (outside the dojang) that claims to have a black belt, but upon further investigation was lying? At your day job, or whatever... ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:00:28 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #143 << I have been taking TKD lessons since the 1st week of January. To give you some background on me, I am a athletic 32 year old male. I seem to be taking to the lessons very well and look forward to the next. Lately, my master is doing the full-court-press on me to sign up for the sparring part of a competition being held in a couple of weeks. I am starting to think that he is only concerned about cash flow! . Each week, in sparring class, I am continually the punching bag for higher belts. There is no one of the same rank in the class. My moves are slower, not as advanced and I'm having difficulty with strategy of fighting in general. My body doen't move as fast as my mind. Not having ever compteted before, should I sign up? I don't want to be embaressed. Thank you for any help. Doug C. >> There are signs of intelligent life everywhere, captain.... :) Okay, there comes a time in life when you are the one being stepped on, not the one stepping. You will eventually gain speed and a general grip of putting techniques together quickly through LOTS of practice. (To let y'all know, I have had e-mail stressing this... and I already practice 5 times a week, alternating practing techniques I learned in class with general cross- training, thankyouverymuch.) You have to go over techniques a lot, sometimes slow to start off so you can get the general feel for how you go from one and transist into another. Once you start getting the hang of putting techniques together based on what's happening in the ring, you'll notice that combinations and attacks/defenses will come out smoother and quicker. I believe that if you don't fail, you will never learn what to correct so you can succeed the next time around. Sometimes things go wrong so we know how things should be when they go right. As long as you sincerely try and make an effort, you can't go wrong. As far as your instructor pressuring you to sign up for the sparring-only part of a competition (am I reading that correctly?), there are 2 sides to the coin: (1) He's probably seeing a lot of potential in you and wants to give you the opportunity to see that yourself so you can build on it, etc., etc. or (2) He probably is just worried about the cash flow. I stress more the former because as you mentioned that you are athletic, your instructor might see that you have lots of potential; you just need to be exposed to that sort of situation to see if you really want to build on it... and sometimes the only way to build on it is to step into the ring with someone higher ranked than you to get your butt handed to you afterwards. There is nobody with the same rank and weight as me, so I'm often stuck with the red belts when it comes time to rumble. Hang in there, and you will eventually come through. I seriously doubt, however, that your instructor is worried about the cash flow at this point in time. Hope this was of any help-- Kim Jones addidastkd@aol.com "All warfare is based on deception." --Sun Tzu, "The Art of War" ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:05:02 PST Subject: the_dojang: Light story about forms! This is just a short story about when I was a colored belt competing in a state tournament in forms. Well back then and maybe you don't see it too much in your tournaments but whenever I was at a tournament and there were higher ranks being tested and not enough higher belt judges the GM's at the tournament would excuse the colored belts and they would sit in, in their place. It was really quite neat. I loved it. Well anyway I was getting ready for a forms division, and my turn was coming up. I think it was red belt. I was the last one up and as I stepped into the ring I had quite the surprise. All 5 judges were being excused and in their place 3 Korean GM's sat down. I can't even begin to tell you what was going through my nervous brain. Oh for sure I was just awesome and composed!!! Not!! But I shall never forget that moment. I haven't a clue as to why they did that. Must have been another one of those humbling moments I've had. After awhile they sure add up. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:09:40 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Taeguk Forms, Conspiracies and other great things >Uh yeah..right. Let me ask you. How many times each week do you sit down to coffee with the CEO of the Kuk Ki Won? I'm fully aware of the design intent of the new Tae Guek forms.< OK, I'll give you the fact that it is hard to get connected to the big man of WTF. So who did you contact about the history of purpose of the Taeguk forms? Where is it that you get your information from to base your statement? Are you guessing or did you contact someone who has good knowledge of the forms and why they were developed? >The WTF is a very Nationalistic organization and has a pattern of historical revisionism. It is humorous to me how often WTF exponents leave out pieces of information that would point back to a Japanese connection to the development of Tae Kwon Do.< That's funny, I have been talking to a lot of WTF exponents and I have yet to hear any of them say TKD is a pure Korean form. Most of the people I talked to and seem to fit in one of two catagories: 1) They did not know any history, 2) They told me about the connections between TKD and Karate history. This great "cover up" conspiracy you are getting at is dead. It might have existed 20 or 30 years ago when TKD was making its way to the US, but we have grown smarter. THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE. >Well...I was talking about TKD practioners as a whole....get this....AS A WHOLE....in this country.......I say.....I say....I say again son, THIS COUNTRY(that's my Foghorn Leghorn impersonation). In otherwords...the statement was a GENERALIZATION across a wide demographic based upon the MAJORITY.< So then you have sparred the majority (or have seen the majority sparred) in this country? Kids everywhere must fear you (condsidering kids make up a good majority of the business in the TKD schools. (I'll try to find the reference for that statement)) You're not generalizing, you're stereotyping and this is never good. (A good example: You said in a posting that you were from Kentucky. You also said that you have an ex-wife. So by stereotyping people from Kentucky I should ask you if divorcing your wife means you are no longer brother and sister). >The forms were intended to be very related to 'great fighting ability'. If you aren't being taught how to make this happen.....then you are not being taught the wholeness of forms training.< So then you are saying that thai boxers have no fighting ability, becuase they don't practice forms. Forms are an assest, but they are not a requirement to be a great fighter. I practice forms and yes I practice bunkai to forms. However I did not learn bunkai then learn to fight. I learned fighting techniques prior to learning forms. I learned how to take forms and make them useful in fighting. If the forms did not exist, then I would be no less of a fighter. Jeremy ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:19:44 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Old Fart Do However, that has not be proven. Others claim they are more like 300 years old, which IMHO is old but not ancient. Ray Terry Yeah...well......when you hit 300 years old would you rather be referred to as "classical" or "ancient".....and for that matter.....are you going to feel just "old"....or "ancient". I don't want to dis my elders (wink wink nod nod snort chuckle) but I think when you hit 300 ....we will won't look at you and say "he's old" it will be more like "he's not just OLD....he's ANCESTRIAL"!!! :-P You know I still love you. JH ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:27:34 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Jamaica's title IX post Jamaica wrote: My question is this. You have a young woman that competes in local tournaments. First my guess is she would be able to compete in either the male or female division? Correct? I know the older competitors have done this for years. Second, say she makes it to a national tournament and checks out the male competition in her weight division and decides she can definitely kick some butt. Could she be stopped from entering into the male weight division instead of the female division of the same weight? I can truly see this happening in the very near future if it hasn't happened already? Comments? - --------------------------------------- Hi all, As a 4th gup in Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan, I prefer to read posts of the more experienced martial artists on this excellent list (thank you, Ray!). But this issue has come up before, that is men sparring with women, and no one has addressed what I will call the "Gentleman Factor". I simply cannot hit women! I am 6 foot about 210 and in reasonably good shape (a year and half of lugging a rucksack up and down the hills of Korea will do that to you). I find sparring with women to be very awkward, as I am afraid of causing an injury. It has happened that as the intensity is turned up, I respond in kind, and an injury resulted. I am fully expecting to be slammed over this, but I am actually asking for other experiences to put this issue in perspective. Keith A. Angilly kangilly@aol.com 4th gup TSDMGK *No one ever rises to low expectations.* ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:26:33 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Master Choon's Lesson No. 36 > KI NOOKI = The ancient art of getting nooki using your Ki. > > /-D > > JH > DAMN YOU JH!! I read this while I was eating lunch! (...ROFLOL in my fish & chips...) Kerry (guffaw) Atchinson I will be offering courses in Ki Nooki in the very near future. Sure to be popular with pubescent boys and lesbians. (You gotta new pair of roller skates and I got the KI........) JH (somebody stop me) ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:39:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Old Fart Do > > You know I still love you. > Be careful, or given that you're from Kentucky and I grew up 1 mile from Kentucky they're gonna think we're brothers... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: lorne Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:44:50 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido-legacy. As a much interested subscriber to the digest I have never been compelled to contribute. Though when I read about Hapkido and some claims or questions most practitioners have in regard to the art form it seems no one truly has any answers. Now I am aware when I look for examples on the internet of the art form I find many differing. Anything from an acrobatic representation, to something that resembles aikido. Now, I truly understand that there is a strong likeness to both the aforementioned, by this I mean there are throws and takedowns and grabbing defense techniques. This is though the only resemblance to these respective art forms. As a student of hapkido, I am being instructed by a former student of Master Chun Kee-Tae who was himself instructed by Master Choi Yung-Sool. The hapkido that I am practicing has a very "sticky" technique, the stand up grappling (grabbing defense techniques) are considered the "essence" of what Hapkido is, combined with the style of kicks of TKD and the throws from judo. The end result is focussed on as well, by that I mean we are trained to finish your adversary, with such techniques as chokes,armbars & breaks as well as leg locks. All striking is applied with optimum power. As any martial art form progresses as it is passed down from instructor to instructor it seems to take a life of its own depending on what the skills are of who is currently teaching. In my case we do practice all of the above with a focus on ground work and "finishing". My instructor, (who out of consideration shall remain nameless) a fourth degree black belt under Master Chung Kee-Tae, has a strong background in jui-jitsu ground fighting and kick boxing and is very accomplished in both aspects.With over 15 years involved in teaching hapkido has added his color to the discipline with a definitely respective approach to Master Chung and Choi's original teachings. I have had previous MA experience though do not wish to explain further, it seems so pale in comparison to what I continue to learn in my current discipline. The opportunity to have passed down to me such rich information from such a distinguished legacy is a great inspiration to my soul. I can see this as being a lifetime endeavor to learn and ultimately (hopefully) perfect the techniques I so receive. As would an inheritance of family, this information is sacred. In ending and the reason why I would like to contribute to this digest is more to express than to comment. I have of late read that some practitioners of TKD have been instructed in the ways and teqniques of HKD, though in essence in a part time manner. This is somewhat disturbing to me as it is a full-time commitment and could not be ingested so well only half heartedly. As any martial art requires a focus of attention, some more some less than others, HKD or TKD are not styles that can be learned easily. I can only feel sorry that HKD is being instructed in such a manner and would advise anyone who is being taught so to consider the quality of instruction. Sincerely LJ ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:22:41 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Banned Wow, why was Taekwondo banned in Poland? Because our forms aren't classical? :) Ray Terry Nice shot, Ray. I'd take advantage of this.........but it would just get me in hot water......or deep Borctsh. Maybe it was banned because you can't do it to a Polka? (OK...I can't help myself sometimes) JH ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:15:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #144 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.