From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #145 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thurs, 11 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 145 In this issue: the_dojang: Black Belt....NOT! the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #142 the_dojang: Taeguk Forms, Conspiracies and other great things the_dojang: "registering hands as a lethal weapon" the_dojang: The Gentleman Factor the_dojang: Re: forms judging the_dojang: Re: malodorous martial artists the_dojang: Re: Ho from NJ the_dojang: Re: response to jamaica the_dojang: Re: no one ever rises.... the_dojang: Re: Banned the_dojang: RE: The Maryland Bill the_dojang: Coaches' Corner the_dojang: Maryland Legislation Re: the_dojang: Re: Banned the_dojang: Switching Belts the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:52:09 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Black Belt....NOT! > PS. Maybe this brings up another subject. Has anyone ever run into > someone (outside the dojang) that claims to have a black belt, but upon > further investigation was lying? At your day job, or whatever... Yep. All the damn time. I usually let them get into it real good then start asking a lot of questions a real Black Belt would/should know....and then just let the crowd make up their own mind. I find these people often like to espouse their martial art prowess in front of groups. Dangerous business. You just never know who might be in the crowd. It's not like we have a sign on our foreheads or anything (unless you count contusions as a sign) /-D JH ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:57:19 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #142 Secondly, forms do not have anything to do with fighting ability. ######Sorry, I just don't buy this. Classical hyung (whatever classical means given their recent creation), kata, poomse, etc do not 'have everything' to do with fighting ability. Forms are the "Dance" of TKD. Thats it nothing more. A boxer with 5 diffrent techniques would waste a martial artist with point sparring experience. Fighting full contact, full speed,makes someone a better fighter. While i love tkd if any of those show boatin' kicks were used on an experienced street fighter there would be a rude awakening on the part of the tkd student. ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:23:54 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Taeguk Forms, Conspiracies and other great things First....to all the posters out there that know me.....I apologize now for taking up your time......second....sit back folks....here it comes: > Subject: the_dojang: Taeguk Forms, Conspiracies and other great things Jeremy, Jeremy, Jeremy. Have you been attending Glenn-Do-Ryu? OK...here we go... > >Uh yeah..right. Let me ask you. How many times each week do you sit > down to coffee with the CEO of the Kuk Ki Won? I'm fully aware of the > design intent of the new Tae Guek forms.< > > OK, I'll give you the fact that it is hard to get connected to the big > man of WTF. So who did you contact about the history of purpose of > the Taeguk forms? Where is it that you get your information from to > base your statement? Are you guessing or did you contact someone who > has good knowledge of the forms and why they were developed? Am I wrong? Can you show proof of there being a history of purpose? You know...you didn't even come close to getting what I have been saying. So let me make it a clear as I can: MY POINT by John Hancock, 4th Level: My point is that the NEW TAE GUEK forms were designed to support SPORT TKD and not classical applicable marital art self defense oriented practices as the CLASSICAL TSD forms were designed to. THere is no BIG history behind them. They (and I have tried my hand at them) are awkward for both the novice and the expert and do not translate well to a self defense practice....and have a limited application for SPORT practice as well. Now I know a pannel of high ranking WTF masters got together and came up with this stuff. I'm just saying...they could have done a whole lot better...but they probably couldn't because they didn't know any better. The applications of the CLASSICAL forms have become available in the last 20 years. Prior to this....they were sort of lost and hidden. I can't begin to hit on this issue in this one posting...but to put it in a nut shell...two events led to the info becoming public today.....ONE...was a little Chinese feller named Bruce Lee who bucked the system and started teaching non-asians. THe other was a guy name Seyu Oyata who came from Okinawa and re-wrote the book on forms applications. Prior to this....we weren't shown the deeper applications...and the very few who were shown....were heavily encouraged to never let it out if they wanted to remain in the inner circle. But times changed. Now...as for the Koreans not having this info...they didn't get it any sooner than we did in the US....because.....The KOREANS hate the JAPANESE as a general rule (something about occupying their country for 40 years) and the JAPANESE think the KOREANS are yellow trash in general (that's sort of like white trash...but with lots of rice). > >The WTF is a very Nationalistic organization and has a pattern of > historical revisionism. It is humorous to me how often WTF exponents > leave out pieces of information that would point back to a Japanese > connection to the development of Tae Kwon Do.< > > That's funny, I have been talking to a lot of WTF exponents and I have > yet to hear any of them say TKD is a pure Korean form. Most of the > people I talked to and seem to fit in one of two catagories: 1) They > did not know any history Gee...what a shock to hear that. > , 2) They told me about the connections > between TKD and Karate history. This great "cover up" conspiracy you > are getting at is dead. It might have existed 20 or 30 years ago when > TKD was making its way to the US, but we have grown smarter. THE > TRUTH IS OUT THERE. Bubba...I never said it was a conspiracy. Why do you bone heads always try to put words in my mouth that I think it is a conspiracy. I don't think they do it to KEEP us in the DARK. They do it because it is ethnically EMBARASSING to them. Kind of like how German decendants don't like people talking about WWII and Hitler. Everybody knows it happenned...but do we have to talk about it. And the reason that everybody knows about the historical connection between Japanese Karate and Tae Kwon Do today ...and that the TRUTH is OUT THERE.....is because assholes like me dug it up and published instead of sitting back and monday morning quarterbacking the various myths, half-lies and truths that were being discussed in disgruntled private little corners. > >Well...I was talking about TKD practioners as a whole....get > this....AS A WHOLE....in this country.......I say.....I say....I say > again son, THIS COUNTRY(that's my Foghorn Leghorn impersonation). > In otherwords...the statement was a GENERALIZATION across a wide > demographic based upon the MAJORITY.< > > So then you have sparred the majority (or have seen the majority > sparred) in this country? Kids everywhere must fear you (condsidering > kids make up a good majority of the business in the TKD schools. > (I'll try to find the reference for that statement)) You're not > generalizing, you're stereotyping and this is never good. (A good > example: You said in a posting that you were from Kentucky. You also > said that you have an ex-wife. So by stereotyping people from Kentucky > I should ask you if divorcing your wife means you are no longer > brother and sister). Yes...this means we are no longer brother and sister. ;-) It also means I'm not your dad and your uncle anymore as well. (buddy...I've worked in 3 prisons......ya don't wanna start heckling me). > >The forms were intended to be very related to 'great fighting > ability'. If you aren't being taught how to make this happen.....then > you are not being taught the wholeness of forms training.< > > So then you are saying that thai boxers have no fighting ability, > becuase they don't practice forms. You better take a second look cuz... Mauy Tai does have forms.But you are still not getting the message. So let me make it even clearer.....the new TAE GUEK forms can't help you to learn SELF DEFENSE because they weren't designed that way. The TSD Forms can....but only if someone teaches you how to get the keupso chirigi and joint locks and throws out of the forms. These forms CAN be used in FREE SPARRING...ie ...in SPORT karate....but once again....only if someone shows you how. This stuff isn't just readily apparant when you look at the forms (or else we wouldn't be having this silly argument). > Forms are an assest, but they are > not a requirement to be a great fighter. I practice forms and yes I > practice bunkai to forms. However I did not learn bunkai then learn > to fight. I learned fighting techniques prior to learning forms. I > learned how to take forms and make them useful in fighting. If the > forms did not exist, then I would be no less of a fighter. TRue...but you would be NO MORE either. John Hancock ------------------------------ From: steve mower Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:38:35 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: "registering hands as a lethal weapon" > From: Aaron Harmon > Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:41:43 -0800 > Subject: the_dojang: registering hands > > I have heard this "registering hands as a lethal weapon" thing from > people who have black belts! I have always heard that it is a myth and Along the lines of "registering hands as a lethal weapon", I've always heard that if you were to find yourself in a civil lawsuit, or even in court charged with assault, as a result of hurting someone in a street fight, the fact that you have Martial Arts training can be held against you. i.e. You should have "known better", or being trained, you should be more responsible for breaking someone's nose (regardless of whether you were defending yourself or not). Has anyone got any true stories along these lines? Tang Soo! Steve Mower smower@erols.com Woodbury Heights, NJ ------------------------------ From: Joan Bostic Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:11:20 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: The Gentleman Factor In response to Keith's concerns about sparring with ladies... Do you worry so much about injuring a male sparring partner? What makes a woman in the dojang any different? Size alone can't be the issue. I've seen some petite, demure looking women whomp on some pretty big boys. Speed kills and big guys don't always have it. I'm a female who wishes she were partnered with male sparring partners more often, which I was this evening when I landed -- not altogether gracefully -- on my derriere, courtesy of a bb and my own tangled legs. (And it was one of the most productive lessons I've had.) Women need the challenge of occasionally sparring with a big guy. After all, I doubt many women are accosted in a dark parking lots by men in the 5'4"/130 lb. category. Your desire to be a gentleman and not beat on the ladies is commendable, but IMHO it is misplaced in the dojang. Joan Bostic 8th Gup, TSD Two Harbors, MN jbostic@mr.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:30:12 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: forms judging In a message dated 3/10/99 2:41:41 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << The answer is to educate the referees you have - force them to be better referees and judges. Ronda J. Sweet >> that's certainly what i'm endeavoring to do. i plan to attend the USNTF instructors seminar (which has a referees training included) and learn from some experienced martial artists. i think it would be great if all black belts who participate in tournaments studied how to properly referee/judge. melinda ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:32:29 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: malodorous martial artists In a message dated 3/10/99 2:41:41 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Stephan....go to your instructor with your concerns. He should have picked up on this already...but if he hasn't, you need to tell him (maybe he has just been too busy). I had a student like this once. We had to have a little private class in personal hygiene. Turns out...nobody had ever shown him how to take care of himself. Pride begins with small endeavors and mentoring. It is your instructors responsibility to help this student....but you and the other students can help by setting good examples too. >> excellent points, john. hopefully, care will be taken in bringing up the matter as this can be a very shaming and embarassing issue. melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:35:50 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ho from NJ In a message dated 3/10/99 2:41:41 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Ho from NJ Hello from New Jeresy... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com >> 'Ho from NJ" ? ....now youre just asking for john to say something....lol. melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:06:34 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: response to jamaica In a message dated 3/10/99 5:12:47 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I try never to personalize issues Melinda. I didn't put anyone's name in my posts at all. And I did the IMHO thing-ee which I don't frequently do so everyone would know it was friendly. I tried to keep it general and share with you what I know from tournaments I've been at and what I personally would and wouldn't do today. I also prefaced my comments saying in the first paragraph that I understand there is a shortage of judges at tournaments. And quite a few posts have gone through since your postings. I tried to allow adequate time and distance not only for your posts to go through but quite a few others on forms and judging. Accept my apologies. I was trying to share not offend. I wish you well in your referee career and I believe you have an excellent mentor in Master Sweet. >> jamaica, no apologies necessary. i was just checking it out. i wouldnt have you refrain from posting your opinions, experiences or beliefs. i did want to clarify, though, if perhaps we needed further dialogue to understand eachothers points of reference and it appears that we are at a mutual understanding of one another's perspective. in regard to master ronda sweet being my mentor, i regret that she is not. she appears to be quite an honourable martial artist and i respect many of her viewpoints and efforts to keep the martial arts ethical and out in the open. we have had the occasion to speak via aol instant messenger as she assisted in my search some time ago for a new master to train with locally and provided background on the new master who is mentoring me. but i suppose, that in a way, all of our seniors are in a sense, our mentors, eh? :) take care, melinda ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:08:49 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: no one ever rises.... In a message dated 3/10/99 5:12:47 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Keith A. Angilly kangilly@aol.com 4th gup TSDMGK *No one ever rises to low expectations.* >> keith, great quote. to whom can we credit it? i'd like to keep that one :) melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:35:09 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Banned >Wow, why was Taekwondo banned in Poland? >Because our forms aren't classical? :) >Ray Terry >raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com TKD was banned because of North Korean embassy in Poland at that time. As you know, there was no TKD in North Korea until the early 1980`s, and the North Koreans treated TKD as "imperialistic martial art made by the South Korean government" (to destroy the peace-loving society of North Korea...;). At that time, South Korea had no embassy in Poland, and the North Korea had very good relations to the Polish government. Needless to say, that after Choi Hong Hi started his work for North Korea, Taekwondo became national treasure there... excluding the "bastardized form done by imitators" (WTF). And, many of TKD people in Poland prefer to do Polka (which is a Czech dance) than to waste their time arguing whether each other`s patterns are useful or not :)... - -- Piotr Bernat dantkd@polbox.com ------------------------------ From: "Barbara Oliver" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:04:56 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The Maryland Bill I saved a copy of the Maryland Bill posting to read over and digest. From my reading of it, it is allowing only black belt or the equivalent rank to use full contact to the head during martial arts competitions. I believe this is a good rule because there could be people who hold a black belt in one style, who are competing as a color belt in another style, and this could put the other color belt at a real disadvantage. In fact, it could be downright dangerous. On the other hand, when two blackbelts of the same degree compete, it is expected that they have mastered their offensive and defensive techniques and should be on a relatively equal footing, so to speak. Bottom line: The Maryland Bill is attempting to protect the safety of the lower ranks in the martial arts. Barbara Oliver stillkicking@prodigy.net "I'd rather live one day like a tiger than one thousand years like a sheep" - --(Tidbit of wisdom I saw somewhere on the internet!) ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:54:54 EST Subject: the_dojang: Coaches' Corner "What Every Coach Should Bring To The Ring" this month's article in Coaches' Corner on the AAU Taekwondo Web Site at www.aautaekwondo.org. This article is great for anyone who coaches athletes in any style of tournament sparring. Dave ------------------------------ From: Gregg London Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:18:45 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Maryland Legislation Good Day, As most of you know by now, The State of Maryland is proposing Legislation to limit, and in some cases, BAN, all head contact from Martial Arts competitions. I would request that you read MD House Bill 1133 and let me know your thoughts. I have reprinted the Bill (with permission) and included an On-Line Survey at: http://www.glondon.com/hb1133.html Best wishes, Gregg London - -- Gregg London Consulting Internet/Notes Development http://www.glondon.com Corporate/Trade Show Magic 703-242-7548 Tournament Automation Services ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 05:41:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Banned > And, many of TKD people in Poland prefer to do Polka (which is a Czech dance) > than to waste their time arguing whether each other`s patterns are useful > or not :)... Ouch!!! Nice shot... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 05:37:43 PST Subject: the_dojang: Switching Belts re: your comment about colored belts judging forms and how they shouldn't judge forms they don't know - I don't know about tournaments where you are but colored belts should NEVER judge forms. Ronda Sweet ________________________________ I believe the operative word is shouldn't and I agree, but they do. I have not only seen it happen more than once I have seen it disguised at various tournaments where oops, Johnny Jumping Bean was a yellow belt in the a.m. and who is that sitting in the ring ref'ing with a black belt on later in the afternoon. It happens. Sad but true. Belt swapping happens in competition, too. Which means as you said, there has to be more effort put into training qualified ref's and perhaps monitoring tournaments. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 05:51:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #145 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.