From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #147 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thurs, 11 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 147 In this issue: the_dojang: Round 4 the_dojang: Re: The Maryland Bill the_dojang: Re: "registering hands as a lethal weapon" the_dojang: spare me the gentleman factor the_dojang: hard times the_dojang: Re: three headed fish the_dojang: Re: belt switching the_dojang: hiding... the_dojang: Re: "men are from mars".....;) the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #146 the_dojang: Dining with the GM the_dojang: Men sparring women the_dojang: Jumping the Gun ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:34:04 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Round 4 >Jeremy, Jeremy, Jeremy. Have you been attending Glenn-Do-Ryu?< If you are wondering if I am getting all my information from Glenn, uhm no. However, he has been nice enough to share information with me on other subjects and I'm sure if I need more information on Taeguks, I coulds ask him or Al or other people on that list. I could probably ask people on this list as well. However, everything, thus far, is from what I have been taught and researched on my own. >Am I wrong? Can you show proof of there being a history of purpose? You know...you didn't even come close to getting what I have been saying. So let me make it a clear as I can: MY POINT by John Hancock, 4th Level: My point is that the NEW TAE GUEK forms were designed to support SPORT TKD and not classical applicable marital art self defense oriented practices as the CLASSICAL TSD forms were designed to.< Show proof of there being a history of purpose? Can you do this for any of the classical or outdated forms? They are all designed to do the same thing give you and imaginary attacker to practice your techniques and stances. Instead of the really low stances that the older forms used, they substituted most of them with more upright stances for the purpose of mobility. >There is no BIG history behind them. They (and I have tried my hand at them) are awkward for both the novice and the expert and do not translate well to a self defense practice....and have a limited application for SPORT practice as well. Now I know a pannel of high ranking WTF masters got together and came up with this stuff. I'm just saying...they could have done a whole lot better...but they probably couldn't because they didn't know any better.< Again, there is no big history behind most of the older forms either. They are just a series of movements. They are repetitive so that the practitioner can learn to apply to both sides of the body. I will agree with you that perhaps they could have done a little better. However to say that they didn't know any better is, in my opinion, is far from the truth. The ones who got together on these forms are the ones who practiced the older forms. They are the ones that help develope TKD. How can you say that they don't kow any better? >The applications of the CLASSICAL forms have become available in the last 20 years. Prior to this....they were sort of lost and hidden.< The main reason why they were lost and hidden was becuase no one cared enough or didn't know how to develope bunkai from them. There is no big secret in forms. They're like looking at an abstract painting, everyone will see something different. Master Ito developed his forms as a way for the youth to practice karate without injury. (This is a paraphrase of the actual reason. I am writting this from work and don't have the actual info at hand.) Master Ito did not hide secret pressure point attacks in his forms. People may find them there, but again, it is just their interpretation of it. >a little Chinese feller named Bruce Lee who bucked the system and started teaching non-asians.< Yes, he also taught that forms were stagnate and was not a true expression of one self in the martial arts. He was anti-forms. >Prior to this....we weren't shown the deeper applications...and the very few who were shown....were heavily encouraged to never let it out if they wanted to remain in the inner circle.< Ahh yes the secret technique never to be shown. I believe it's called "let me show you some BS but don't show anyone because it might not work and I don't want to lose any money" technique. Again, we became wiser to the "secrets" of the orient. >JAPANESE think the KOREANS are yellow trash in general (that's sort of like white trash...but with lots of rice).< Japanese thought all races were inferior. They were the BMOC of Asia. >Bubba...I never said it was a conspiracy. Why do you bone heads always try to put words in my mouth that I think it is a conspiracy.< You're right, you never directly said it was a conspiracy. My bad. >I don't think they do it to KEEP us in the DARK. They do it because it is ethnically EMBARASSING to them.< Sorry, hard to see that. The Jido Kwan patch shows its connection to the Japanese art. They pride themselves on being some of the best Yudo players around. It has nothing to do ethniticity. >Yes...this means we are no longer brother and sister. ;-) It also means I'm not your dad and your uncle anymore as well.< Ha..ha...ha.. Good comback. 8?) >(buddy...I've worked in 3 prisons......ya don't wanna start heckling me).< I'm really not interested on how you pick up dates. 8?) >the new TAE GUEK forms can't help you to learn SELF DEFENSE because they weren't designed that way. The TSD Forms can....but only if someone teaches you how to get the keupso chirigi and joint locks and throws out of the forms. These forms CAN be used in FREE SPARRING...ie ...in SPORT karate....but once again....only if someone shows you how. This stuff isn't just readily apparant when you look at the forms (or else we wouldn't be having this silly argument).< I will give you part of this. Bunkai is not readily apparent in any forms unless your are taught to think abstactly (I don't think this is a word but oh well). Taeguks are no exception. You can use the forms in self defense situations if you know how to abstract the moves from the forms. Jeremy ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:59:39 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The Maryland Bill Barbara Oliver wrote: << Bottom line: The Maryland Bill is attempting to protect the safety of the lower ranks in the martial arts. >> Barbara, you might be interested in what Ronda Sweet has to say about how "the safety of the lower ranks" can impact on the safety of the higher ranks. Check out Sport Taekwondo Today at http://hometown.aol.com/LadyTKD/rumor.htm I'm not sure of the date, but believe it was in the last month (Help me, Ronda!) BTW, the only person from our school who was injured in our state championships was a young man who earned his black belt about six months ago and was not an Olympic Style practitioner. Many tried to talk him out of fighting, but he went ahead anyway and was totally outclassed. IMHO, the problem is not being properly trained for the type of sparring in which you are engaging, and your belt rank has absolutely zip to do with that. Sally CBAUGHN@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:59:37 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: "registering hands as a lethal weapon" Steve MOWER wrote: << Along the lines of "registering hands as a lethal weapon", I've always heard that if you were to find yourself in a civil lawsuit, or even in court charged with assault, as a result of hurting someone in a street fight, the fact that you have Martial Arts training can be held against you. i.e. You should have "known better", or being trained, you should be more responsible for breaking someone's nose (regardless of whether you were defending yourself or not). Has anyone got any true stories along these lines? >> Several years ago in Ohio, one person I know was involved in a situation where he broke someone's arm - the someone happened to be coming at him with a baseball bat. When the police came, the guy with the broken arm was taken to the hospital then to jail. The only effect on the guy who broke the arm was that he was required to be available as a witness if the other guy wanted a jury trial. The police explained that even in a self defense situation you are allowed to use "matching force" or less. A hand or foot against a baseball bat is less force; a hand or foot against an unarmed person who is attacking you is matching force, the black belt doesn't make any difference in the amount of force. Sally CBAUGHN@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Leslie Harris Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:11:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: spare me the gentleman factor In response to Scott's statement "In other words, I don't think you want me to kick you in the t*t, even with control. I certainly don't want to. Neither do I want to be kicked in the b*lls". What? So women can't spar because we might get hit in the t*t? Are only men capable of hitting us there? Judging from the reactions I've seen when men get hit with a capital H, it is a LOT more painful than any blow I've ever taken to the chest (and, believe me, it's not for lack of a target;). And sure, getting hit hard can hurt and accidents can happen. There are a lot of men in my dojang who find me a challenge to fight because I'm quick, I hit hard, and I'm not afraid to get hit. In our dojang we treat each other with an attitude of respect and control, regardless of age or sex. I'm glad that sexism in the name of a misguided sense of chivalry has no place in our school. Leslie 1st Dan, TKD ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:41:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: hard times >Jeremy, Jeremy, Jeremy. Have you been attending Glenn-Do-Ryu?< Ok, come on now. Enough about Glenn. Go over to his list if you want to give him a hard time... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:38:20 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: three headed fish In a message dated 3/11/99 2:23:14 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << P.S. Melinda.......I almost said something to Ray about bringing us back a three headed fish from the Jersey river......but I decided to let it go. You must be psychic............................or is it.....psychotic? /-) >> lol....questionable, i'm sure ;) melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:42:46 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: belt switching In a message dated 3/11/99 2:23:14 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Are you certain what you saw wasn't Jumpin' Johnny the dan holder picking up a couple easy trophies by competing in the gup groups? Unfortunately, I have seen and heard of similar events, albeit usually spanning a much smaller spread of rank. >oops, Johnny Jumping Bean was a yellow belt in >the a.m. and who is that sitting in the ring ref'ing with a black belt >on later in the afternoon. It happens. Tang Soo! Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@cyberenet.net >> personally, i think in that situation, they should be stripped of rank. if they wanna be a lower gup....fine....stay there 'til youve learned what it means to wear the black belt. and yes, i do realize that this is probably happening with the instructors consent. IMO, that makes it so much worse. melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:02:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: hiding... Come on folks... Some seem to be hiding behind the 'no from line bug' we are currently operating under, by which in not including a .sig at the end they are anonymously posting flames against Master Todd Miller for speaking his mind about the history of Hapkido. While I think we have sufficiently covered that topic, -if- you have comments for Master Miller do not do it anonymously. Or better yet, send them directly to Mr. Miller. I'm sure he can take it and respond in kind... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:52:55 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: "men are from mars".....;) In a message dated 3/11/99 2:23:14 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Our permissible target area in TSD sparring is the thorax from belt to shoulder. I've noticed from time to time that females of the species have these delicate glandular appendages that cover a significant fraction (varies;>) of this territory. I've been told by some who should know that these appendages exhibit comparible sensitivity to the "family jewels" in men. Some of the the ladies in class don't own chest protectors.... >> lol. yes, scott, i would imagine that sometimes it hurts like that. accidents happen. y'know, it really doesnt take that long to get into gear. and people can cycle out to trade off chest protectors too. if youre being chivalrous...give her yours...lol ;). i'm not that well versed on TSD, but i'm surprised that y'all dont make use of the hogus. i doubt that women worry about sparring with men half as much as you men worry about sparring with us. as a matter of fact, if you accidentally nail her in the...um...chest area, dont pause long to ask her if she's ok...you'll probably end up on the floor cuz doubtless, she wont think twice about it and will keep on going. psychologically speaking, its incredibly healthy for women to practice martial arts sparring. where else in society are women allowed to spar/fight? (outside of sports like boxing/kickboxing). melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:23:28 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #146 The only arts that may have an advantage in a boxer/street/bar scenario might be someone with good ground technique. This may be true, but if someone goes to the ground in a public place the danger of having his buddies kick you in the ribs while your down is a danger that is far to great.I think if the said attacker is identified as a boxer the best and fastest way to eliminate him is to do a thai style kick to the knee or thigh. This is a concept that many tkders dont have a grasp on. The tournament scene has given most of the students a false sence of fighting ability.Only a good teacher or a student determined to find out what really works will have knowlage on how to fight a boxer or a grappler .No martial art is better than another but i dont believe there is one martial art that has all the answers either. I say this as a humble student of the martial arts, and do not mean to ruffle any feathers. ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:29:25 PST Subject: the_dojang: Dining with the GM Well in my days I have had the opportunity (and the privilege) of dining with some of whom I consider the finest GM's. Sometimes it was quite formal as when I received my first black belt. As time went on and we became friends and business associates then circumstances allowed for respect but casualness. I've noticed there are quite a few people on this forum that are fairly new to the martial arts and I remember nobody shared with me what was expected when a GM invited me to his house after my first black belt test with other blackbelts. Okay, there I was a new blackbelt and first I couldn't believe I was invited to what was considered a very "private and special" dinner for certain blackbelts that had contributed enormously to the sport. So in I walk and there are all these people I held in high esteem including the GM and his family. Well a meal was set out in the middle of his front room on a table and others were sitting around. So what are some things you do to save face: a). Wait for the host to eat first as you always should, b). Let all the higher belts situate themselves around the GM in the usual pecking order, c). Help the Mrs. in the kitchen dish out the food, d). Don't talk unless spoken too, e). Schoomze with the family members and forget the GM, f). Take your shoes off when entering his house, g). Ask for lots of sake. h). Use chopsticks even if you don't know how, i). Leave without saying thank you. One of the above, all of the above, none of the above. What about at a restaurant? Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Arlene Slocum Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:23:10 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Men sparring women >I'm a female who wishes she were partnered with male sparring partners >more often, which I was this evening when I landed -- not altogether >gracefully -- on my derriere, courtesy of a bb and my own tangled legs. >(And it was one of the most productive lessons I've had.) Women need >the challenge of occasionally sparring with a big guy. After all, I >doubt many women are accosted in a dark parking lots by men in the >5'4"/130 lb. category. >Your desire to be a gentleman and not beat on the ladies is commendable, >but IMHO it is misplaced in the dojang. >Joan Bostic >8th Gup, TSD I am a black belt in the 5'4" 130 lb category and I can tell you that if I had to spar a yellow belt male 5'10 180 lbs who came at me full force I would be putting myself at great risk for suffering serious internal injuries. This is not a matter of TKD skill but simple physics. I do spar men, but I limit it to men who are closer to my weight or male black belts who will use control. If I spar large lower belt males I make it clear that they cannot strike with full force. I am in the "ancient warrior" category and wish to continue to compete and eventually instruct. I can't do that if I have a busted spleen. One time a male partner did a spin axe kick on me where his heel came right down on the vertebrae of my spine between my shoulder blades (I was turning to avoid the kick). If he was going full force his extra weight and leg strength would have caused me an injury that would paralyze me for life. We face this risk no matter who our partners are, but statistically the odds of suffering serious permanent injury are much greater when your opponent has more weight and leg strength. Arlene Slocum 1st Dan Lawrence Tae Kwon Do School Lawrence, Kansas ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:57:02 PST Subject: the_dojang: Jumping the Gun Oops, sorry this is not a gun thread! Just wanted to know how others feel about the over anxious/ambitious student that wants to jump ahead in their training whether it is in forms, sparring, holds, whatever. You got them focused at one point for their belt level and they keep jumping ahead and learning the next thing up. Do you feel this is good or bad? Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #147 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.