From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #148 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 12 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 148 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Jamaica's title IX post the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #147 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #145 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #147 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #147 the_dojang: forms and bunkai the_dojang: Wan Soo Do. the_dojang: short ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Dudley" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:53:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Jamaica's title IX post Hi, Keith. >this issue has come up before, that is men sparring with women, and no one has >addressed what I will call the "Gentleman Factor". I simply cannot hit women! Try kicking them, then! ;-) >sparring with women to be very awkward, as I am afraid of causing an injury. >It has happened that as the intensity is turned up, I respond in kind, and an >injury resulted. Seriously, if injury occurred, the odds are that one or both of you was/were lacking in control at that time. Perhaps your control is better now? I can tell you this, as a female I find it disappointing when I spar with someone who is THAT reluctant to hit. Of course I don't want a far-more-skilled guy going after me with all the techniques and power he has. But when I spar with a guy who seems only to want to block and never strike, I feel that I don't get the chance to learn to block, dodge, change directions, change techniques, learn to anticipate his attacks, etc. Class is a place for me to practice the techniques of defending myself in a situation where I'm not afraid. We classmates are there to help each other practice. Of course I'm not in your shoes, but I say, work on your own control. When you feel you can attack with accuracy and with good control of the amount of force you put into any given attack, then you will feel a little easier about sparring with women. >I am fully expecting to be slammed over this, but I am >actually asking for other experiences to put this issue in perspective. Slammed? Slammed? Not here, sir. We're all ladies and gentlemen, and we're here to help you. Now get out there and hit some women, Keith. Jane jdudley@inna.net ------------------------------ From: "The Hostetlers" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:59:23 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #147 As a point of order, I've never sparred a woman who wasn't wearing a hogu, so I've never really worried about, err, soft tissue contact. Robert W. Hostetler hostetb@iserve.net Indianapolis, IN Only tyrants and criminals need fear an armed citizen. >From: Leslie Harris >Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:11:25 -0500 (EST) >Subject: the_dojang: spare me the gentleman factor > >In response to Scott's statement "In other words, I don't think you want me >to kick you in the t*t, even with control. I certainly don't want to. >Neither do I want to be kicked in the b*lls". > >What? So women can't spar because we might get hit in the t*t? Are only >men capable of hitting us there? > >Judging from the reactions I've seen when men get hit with a capital H, it >is a LOT more painful than any blow I've ever taken to the chest (and, >believe me, it's not for lack of a target;). And sure, getting hit hard can >hurt and accidents can happen. > >There are a lot of men in my dojang who find me a challenge to fight because >I'm quick, I hit hard, and I'm not afraid to get hit. In our dojang we >treat each other with an attitude of respect and control, regardless of age >or sex. I'm glad that sexism in the name of a misguided sense of chivalry >has no place in our school. > >Leslie >1st Dan, TKD ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:20:57 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #145 In a message dated 3/11/99 5:48:27 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Now I know a pannel of high ranking WTF masters got together and came up with this stuff. I'm just saying...they could have done a whole lot better...but they probably couldn't because they didn't know any better. >> This would appear to be a mightily presumptuous and arrogant statement unless the maker was an even higher ranking master. Then it would only be arrogant. SESilz ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:53:13 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #147 In a message dated 3/11/99 3:04:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << >The applications of the CLASSICAL forms have become available in the last 20 years. Prior to this....they were sort of lost and hidden.< >> Can anyone offer a reasonable explanation as to how knowledge that (some claim) has been propagated for 900 years vanishes from sight for 20, only to reappear for all to see? Kind of reminds me of how the long defunct (not to mention dishonorable) practice of ninjitsu was successfully given CPR in the 1980s by several opportunistic "masters," ...and the magic of Hollywood. No offense, but given what I know about Asian martial arts, I would not be surprised to learn that the existence of 900 (or is it 300?) year-old tang soo do forms may be as much "revisionist history" as the alleged absolute lack of influence of Chinese, Okinawan, Japanese (and other) arts on the ones considered to be wholly Korean. SESilz ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:11:21 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #147 In a message dated 3/11/99 3:04:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Sorry, hard to see that. The Jido Kwan patch shows its connection to the Japanese art. They pride themselves on being some of the best Yudo players around. It has nothing to do ethniticity. >> Please be careful with this easily made assumption as the two red spheres depicted in the center of the JiDoKwan mark actually show up as symbols of many diverse cultures and are considered, in the circles of Jungian thought, to be images "archetypical" of the human mind, not unlike a "mandala." And the Eight Orders of Solemnity (the 8 Lotus points around the perimeter) are far too close to the Gotama Buddha's Eight-Fold Path to Enlightenment to be considered to have come from any other origin. ...By the way, while the JiDoKwan uses the spheres to depict "indomitable spirit," a more ancient (and perhaps archetypical) explanation is the spheres balanced upon one another denote "balance of mind and body; the ultimate development of man." In contrast, if the upper sphere "floats" detached above the lower one, this indicates an imbalanced person dominated by their head. If the upper ball is sunk into the lower one, this depicts one who is dominated by the flesh. Interesting stuff, huh? SESilz ------------------------------ From: burdickd Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:37:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: forms and bunkai Wow. Lots of discussion on this recently, so I figured I'd toss my two cents in too. First, I agree with John Hancock that the older forms (pyung-an, aka. pinans) and other Okinawan forms hold much more meaning than do the p'algwaes or t'aeguks. The Songnam forms are nice, but they are really modern sparring forms rather like some of the modern Japanese styles are doing now. The older forms have several levels of meaning and include blocks, strikes, jointlocks, throws, and perhaps pressure point strikes as well. I know of several moves in the forms that everybody who doesn't know the bunkai thinks are worthless, and in fact I thought that too for a long time. Luckily I'm pretty conservative and keep practicing what I was taught long, long ago, even after reading Bruce Lee's comments on the "classical mess" and thinking it made a lot of sense. Now I'm not so sure -- every year I find more things that make the forms make sense. No Jeremy, they have nothing to do with sparring, since sparring is not real fighting. Sport fighting involves low risk techniques in a high risk environment, while classical training involves high risk techniques in a low risk environment. As for judging forms, I think there really is no way to do it justice unless you do it like sport karate (judge whether it looks good, not whether or not it is effective). There are just too many opinions on what works. Two examples here. I went to one taekwondo tournament that featured open forms. Almost everybody did either ITF or WTF forms, but one girl did a pinan form. She got a low score, since she wasn't kicking very high, so I went over to tell her that I thought her form had been excellent and that she should not get disappointed just because the judges didn't know what they were looking at. While chatting, I discovered that the girl was a national competitor in Okinawan forms. Her parents were a bit ticked that she got a low score in tiny local tournament, but I guess my praise made them feel better. Another time, I was asked to judge kung-fu forms (!) because I had done taijiquan. This was pretty ridiculous, but I did it because they only had one judge who really was qualified and the others didn't have any background in the Chinese arts. It was my opinion that the brown belt competing did a better job than the black belt who won the competition, because the brown belt flowed fluidly from one movement to another without flaw. The black belt won because the tkd guys who were judging him saw him focus his techniques like they would, and awarded it on that basis. Again, I chatted with the competitors after the competition and all of the kung-fu guys agreed with me that the brown belt should have won (well, almost all, the black belt had already left). This was a problem in local competitions, but I've also seen it show up in national competitions in TKD, not between different cultures, but between differing philosophies in the styles. When doing the first double kick in Koryo, where do the kicks go, waist and head or knee and waist? I've seen judges go both ways, depending on their personal beliefs about effectiveness and training. So I guess within a federation, you need to have established guidelines for judging, and within an open tournament of various martial artists, you would either have to have a rating system similar to gymnastics or you would have stick a couple of your highest ranks out there to judge the various styles, because only a few of your senior ranks are going to have the expertise to compare and contrast the relative virtues of a Shorin-ryu competitor, a Wado-ryu competitor, a WTF competitor, a Wushu competitor, and a Wing Chun competitor. To do that fairly, you need to have equal expertise from each art (a panel perhaps?). Oh, one thing I really don't know about. John, you mentioned forms that were 900 years old. Which ones are these? As I said, I haven't studied Chinese styles enough to know. Certainly they are not from Japan or Korea, right? Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: K.P.Beckett@sussex.ac.uk (Kevin Beckett) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:33:20 +0000 Subject: the_dojang: Wan Soo Do. >>His site can be found at: http://www.wan-soo-do.demon.co.uk/index.html Honestly, have a read. I promise it won't fail to raise a chuckle or two...<< If I really really concentrate, will that also make the attackers go away? You are correct, it was more than an amusing site. I killed it after chuckling through a couple of pages of nonsense. I'd appreciate if you would post this as my replies to digest are not going through. Regards, DH Don.Hahn@phs.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 05:41:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: short Sorry for the short issue. I'll be flying for the next several hours. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #148 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.