From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #149 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 12 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 149 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Wan Soo Do the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #148 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #148 the_dojang: Re: is this a word? the_dojang: Re: hee hee Melinda/thanks Scott the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #145 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #146 the_dojang: Re: question for you jamaica/culture the_dojang: Re: anxious students the_dojang: Forms - lower belts/black belts the_dojang: Book About Females the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #146 the_dojang: RE: Forms and abstractions the_dojang: Re: flying the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #147 the_dojang: Re: V6 #147: sparring women the_dojang: Re: V6 #147: pistola plyometrics the_dojang: Re: V6 #148: forms the_dojang: Re: "registering hands as a lethal weapon" the_dojang: RE: The New, Revised, MA Style Of The Future! the_dojang: Hitting girls. ; ) the_dojang: Re: 1st sparring competition the_dojang: Re: The Gentleman Factor the_dojang: Re: Rank the_dojang: More on Title IX the_dojang: Constitution, etc. the_dojang: Re: excellent blackbelts the_dojang: Just the facts the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steven Gilmore Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:43:40 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Wan Soo Do >>His site can be found at: http://www.wan-soo-do.demon.co.uk/index.html Honestly, have a read. I promise it won't fail to raise a chuckle or two...<< I no longer remember who posted the original message -- but THANK YOU. I visited the site and found it quite... entertaining. Sincerely, Steven Gilmore San Antonio, TX, USA ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:01:55 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #148 This would appear to be a mightily presumptuous and arrogant statement unless the maker was an even higher ranking master. Then it would only be arrogant. SESilz Not really. When you begin to learn some of the particulars about who was involved and their backgrounds...and the political pressure that was brought to bear on the KTA when Mr. Choi was ousted....then it is neither arrogance nor presumtion......just observation. And I see myself as a historian first. Much like a journalist....I can't afford to let contrived levels of superiority impede my observation and reporting. THey still put their pant on one leg at a time. Being polite is not the same as being suberviant and willing to accept just anything that is proffered to me....irregardless of the sensibility of it. JH ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:08:47 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #148 Sorry for the short issue. I'll be flying for the next several hours. Ray Terry Don't your arms get tired doing that? (Hey everybody....it is spring!!! Ray is migrating!!!) /-D JH ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:14:16 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: is this a word? In a message dated 3/11/99 6:02:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I will give you part of this. Bunkai is not readily apparent in any forms unless your are taught to think abstactly (I don't think this is a word but oh well). Taeguks are no exception. You can use the forms in self defense situations if you know how to abstract the moves from the forms. Jeremy >> FWIW, the word is abstractly. I believe we all understood what you meant just fine :0) ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:31:31 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: hee hee Melinda/thanks Scott In a message dated 3/11/99 6:02:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << lol. yes, Scott, i would imagine that sometimes it hurts like that. accidents happen. Y'know, it really doesnt take that long to get into gear. And people can cycle out to trade off chest protectors too. if youre being chivalrous...give her yours...lol ;). I'm not that well versed on TSD, but I'm surprised that y'all dont make use of the hogus. [snip ] Melinda >> Melinda, Always good for laugh, you are. I love that "give her yours." Your cycle idea, IMO is a great one even though I don't know about TSD. It works for us in TKD. After all, how many people can be on the mat at the same time sparring? 2 pairs, 3? Scott, FWIW, I agree with the more experienced women who have posted that sparring should be an issue of skill and not gender. Common sense tells us that would- be attackers are often big guys. However, I'm not afraid to admit that I thought it was thoughtful of you to consider it. The same way that I consider sparring a man MUCH taller than me - I have to be very, very careful to *keep my kicks up* no matter how tired I may be or how inflexible my hips really are. Dawne ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:37:01 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #145 In a message dated 3/11/99 8:47:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: Joan Bostic wrote: << In response to Keith's concerns about sparring with ladies... Do you worry so much about injuring a male sparring partner? What makes a woman in the dojang any different? Size alone can't be the issue. I've seen some petite, demure looking women whomp on some pretty big boys. Speed kills and big guys don't always have it. I'm a female who wishes she were partnered with male sparring partners more often, which I was this evening when I landed -- not altogether gracefully -- on my derriere, courtesy of a bb and my own tangled legs. (And it was one of the most productive lessons I've had.) Women need the challenge of occasionally sparring with a big guy. After all, I doubt many women are accosted in a dark parking lots by men in the 5'4"/130 lb. category. Your desire to be a gentleman and not beat on the ladies is commendable, but IMHO it is misplaced in the dojang. >> Joan, Thank you for your response. At my level, I am sure there are hundreds of women who can take me apart in a sparrring situation. I guess the problem is that I am just very uncomfortable with it. But, you are right, it isn't fair to whomever I am sparring not to give them the courtesy of my best effort. Melinda wrote: *No one ever rises to low expectations.* >> keith, great quote. to whom can we credit it? i'd like to keep that one :) melinda chunjido@aol.com Melinda, Thank you for bringing the lack of credit to my attention. I heard it a meeting of Golf Course Superintendents here in Connecticutt. The speaker was the coach of the UMASS football team, Tom(?) Whipple Good Luck, Keith A. Angilly 4th gup, TSDMGK Kangilly@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:47:18 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #146 Scott Miller bravely wrote: "... I've noticed from time to time that females of the species have these delicate glandular appendages that cover a significant fraction (varies;>) of this territory. I've been told by some who should know that these appendages exhibit comparible sensitivity to the "family jewels" in men. Some of the the ladies in class don't own chest protectors (TSD sparring typically does _not_ employ hogues), and, anyway, sparring in class frequently doesn't allow time for an equipment change. In other words, I don't think you want me to kick you in the t*t, even with control. I certainly don't want to." This notion was also rolling around in my head, but I didn't have the "b*lls" to put it in my post! :) Good Luck, Keith A. Angilly 4th gup TSDMGK New Haven, CT kangilly@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:54:17 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: question for you jamaica/culture << So what are some things you do to save face: a). Wait for the host to eat first as you always should, b). Let all the higher belts situate themselves around the GM in the usual pecking order, c). Help the Mrs. in the kitchen dish out the food, d). Don't talk unless spoken too, e). Schoomze with the family members and forget the GM, f). Take your shoes off when entering his house, g). Ask for lots of sake. h). Use chopsticks even if you don't know how, i). Leave without saying thank you. One of the above, all of the above, none of the above. >> Jamaica, Believe me when I say I am not taking issue with you at all but I do have questions. MY questions arise from a conversation I recently had with a woman (American) invited to dine in a Korean home with lots of martial artists present. Again, I'm not trying to piss you off, on the contrary you may have the answers. Now... I don't understand i) - leave without saying thank you. Can you expand on this? h) may be difficult but is very polite. I don't understand the purpose of e), to keep the GM free for conversation with the higerups or to be polite or what? Now for THE question. Do you say serve food with the Mrs. because you personally are a woman? Because you were a new bb or what? My very good friend said in her experience(s) the MRS. never came out of the kitchen. As an American she didn't like it, it felt uncomfortable. However, she didn't say anything b/c she's not ethnocentric. She did however expect to REMAIN in the front room, after all she was an invited guest. She was treated quite well and for most of the evening was in culture shock of a sort. I should mention that Korean was the language of choice that eve. so joining in the conversation was not possible. I invite your answer/comments. Additionally she said when dinner was over they were "ushered right out the door." To a Southerner that feels rude to eat and run. However, it seemed to be the thing to do, so when in Rome... Is that peculiar to that family or is it part of the culture? You know how we Americans linger over the meal and talk. The French do to. The last time we had dinner out with our GM it was 4 of us and we went to a Korean place. What I noticed, the staff spoke only to him unless we spoke to them first. Everything was done in Korean and he ordered our food. Since we had never been he suggested we get the BBQ (so cool to cook at your own table) so we said "OK." It wasn't like we had a better suggestion :0) Then we looked at the menu and asked about the various items since many shared the same Hangul characters. He explained the differences and similarities. It was fun. No one ate until he did but I'm not sure that was nec. out of respect. We simply didn't know WHAT to do, ah ha ha. IF you coulda seen me trying to get the rice, meat and toppings wrapped up in that lettuce leaf 8?) Before we left I used my napkin to clean my part of the table so that they wouldn't think my GM (they know him well) brought a sloppy eater to their establishment. The only thing I didn't like was the country music in the background. One last thing- that was the only Asian place that ever gave me chopsticks without me having to ask. I thought that was respectful. I use them quite well and usually find people surprised when I ask for them. Dawne ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:10:24 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: anxious students << Just wanted to know how others feel about the over anxious/ambitious student that wants to jump ahead in their training whether it is in forms, sparring, holds, whatever. You got them focused at one point for their belt level and they keep jumping ahead and learning the next thing up. Do you feel this is good or bad? Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com >> IMO, this is both bad and good. I used to be this way. When I first started I was eager to "get a form." I practiced the basics and enjoyed them. I tried/try to fix every little thing to make it perfect but I wanted to learn a form. I also wanted to "break things". I'm not necessarily proud of this but I am being honest. I think the eagerness needs to be focus and channeled by the master b/c the student won't nec. be able to. Turns out I'm good at breaking, still love forms and don't care much for sparring. Maybe intuitively I had a feeling. One day master said "Dawne, you've got to learn patience" and I answered "Well, yes sir but after 26 yrs. You have your work cut out for you." He just laughed and I learned to keep things to myself more (holding your tongue is a good life lesson in general) and learned to *let* myself be at my level. Learned to think of the skills I wanted as being IN the future, not MAYBE in the future. This also became a comfortable joke between us. One day I asked him if my husband bribed him to work on patience with me, maybe paid him extra or waxed his car. He almost choked on his drink. On the mat training should be serious for obvious reasons, but off the mat its good to have a bit of fun now and again. Dawne ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:24:56 PST Subject: the_dojang: Forms - lower belts/black belts ..The black belt won because the tkd guys who were judging him saw him focus his techniques like they would, and awarded it on that basis. Again, I chatted with the competitors after the competition and all of the kung-fu guys agreed with me that the brown belt... Dakin Burdick - ------------------------------------------ The following is a situation similar to Dakins but these competitors were all from the same discipline. It was not mixed arts. I have been instructed at certain tournaments that when getting to the Grand prize trophy or black belt competitions that if a competitor is a red belt or red with stripe, or lower that that even if they excelled over and above the black belts they were not to be awarded any trophies. I was instructed it was out of respect for the black belts. That the red belts were competing only for the experience (whether they knew it or not). I have also been at tournaments where this was not the rule. FYI Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:48:52 PST Subject: the_dojang: Book About Females There's been some discussion about the uncomfortableness of sparring with women. For those who are interested in reading there is a book out called "Just Like A Woman - How Gender Science is Redefining What Makes A Female" by Dianne Hales. Just Like a Woman presents the cutting-edge findings in anthropology, physiology, psychology, neuroscience, endocrinology, and medicine that are redefining what a woman is. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:50:30 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #146 > From: "Michael Sarles" > Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:26:54 -0800 > Subject: the_dojang: Forms -vs- Dancing - Actual Fighting > > I think the key thing to remember is: if you have someone that enjoys > street/bar fighting and does it A LOT - well...aren't they a martial > artist > of a sort - training in a particular way...in their particular art? Or No way. Someone that is into street/bar fighting has no concept of what it means to be in the MA. Kerry ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:10:02 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Forms and abstractions > > I will give you part of this. Bunkai is not readily apparent in any > forms unless your are taught to think abstactly (I don't think this > is > a word but oh well). Taeguks are no exception. You can use the > forms > in self defense situations if you know how to abstract the moves from > > the forms. > > Jeremy > > Well said. We're doing ourselves a disservice if we take the (all too human) stance that "THIS IS THE WAY IT IS". Most of what we learn in MA or other efforts can be extended past the obvious. JH's obvious expertise aside (and I do enjoy reading JH's historical comments), I find it very hard to believe the creators of the Tae Guek forms really had their heads up their rear ends. BTW - Perhaps you meant "abstractly"? It seems I'm thinking "abstactly" when I'm sparring a female partner. ;) Damn you again, JH. You're rubbing off on me too. ;) Kerry ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:27:25 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: flying << Sorry for the short issue. I'll be flying for the next several hours. Ray Terry >> no problem. just be sure to land well :0) ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:34:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #147 I agree with you, to an extent. I think this kind of stuff may start with an instructor holding off on awarding a promotion that has been tested for until after an upcoming tournament. The rationale, which is defensible, is "well, it wouldn't be fair for you to compete against all those experienced fill-in-the-blank-rank holders when you just received yours." Unfortunately, if we start manipulating exhibited rank to make competition subjectively fair, it becomes very difficult to find a good place to draw the line. In addition, there are always a few unscrupulous competitors who will take advantage of any opportunity for an edge, however dishonorable. Better not to start down that slope, IMHO. >personally, i think in that situation, they should be stripped of rank. if >they wanna be a lower gup....fine....stay there 'til youve learned what it >means to wear the black belt. and yes, i do realize that this is probably >happening with the instructors consent. IMO, that makes it so much worse. Tang Soo! Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@cyberenet.net ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:34:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #147: sparring women I figure with a senora-a-senora match, equitable retaliation is available and obvious. To refine the context a bit, our sparring is moderate contact stop point. Sparring for us is much more for refining TSD techniques than for developing self-defense or street fighting capabilities. When it comes to self-defense practice, I don't disadvantage anyone by letting them off too easy. WRT sparring, IMHO "control" is a concept that needs to be tailored to some extent to each individual with whom I spar. Just to be clear, I don't just block, nor do I in any way completely refrain from employing hand or foot techniques when sparring women. I _do_ try to confine my body target to just above the belt, and I try to exercise a little extra control if a technique might strike above that area. If taking the anatomical differences between human males and human female into account as part of my control "equation" makes me sexist in your opinion, so be it. I don't agree, and I don't believe any of the women with whom I train would, either. >In response to Scott's statement "In other words, I don't think you want me >to kick you in the t*t, even with control. I certainly don't want to. >Neither do I want to be kicked in the b*lls". > >What? So women can't spar because we might get hit in the t*t? Are only >men capable of hitting us there? Tang Soo! Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@cyberenet.net ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:34:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #147: pistola plyometrics We have pretty strict curriculum guidelines about what rank can learn which technique, and who can show it to them, so this isn't much of a problem in our school. > >Just wanted to know how others feel about the over anxious/ambitious >student that wants to jump ahead in their training whether it is in >forms, sparring, holds, whatever. You got them focused at one point for >their belt level and they keep jumping ahead and learning the next thing >up. Tang Soo! Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@cyberenet.net ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:35:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #148: forms Just for clarification, I don't think Master Hancock intended to suggest that the Naihanci forms originated as part of Tang Soo Do. >No offense, but given what I know about Asian martial arts, I would not be >surprised to learn that the existence of 900 (or is it 300?) year-old tang >soo >do forms may be as much "revisionist history" as the alleged absolute lack >of >influence of Chinese, Okinawan, Japanese (and other) arts on the ones >considered to be wholly Korean. Tang Soo! Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@cyberenet.net ------------------------------ From: "Mark M. Smith" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:43:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: "registering hands as a lethal weapon" Sally, At 06:03 PM 3/11/99 -0500, you wrote: > >The police explained that even in a self defense situation you are allowed to >use "matching force" or less. A hand or foot against a baseball bat is less >force; a hand or foot against an unarmed person who is attacking you is >matching force, the black belt doesn't make any difference in the amount of >force. > Be careful and check the laws for your state. While the general concept of matching force is probably legitimate for most states in the US, the details can get you in trouble. For instance, in Massachusetts, the shod foot is considered a weapon. Therefore, if you kick a person who tries to punch you, and you have shoes on, you can be subject to arrested. Another state that might cause problems is Louisiana, because their laws are derived from the French legal system and not the English legal system as I believe the other 49 states are. Now, please do not flame me on the legal details, my point is that you need to research the laws in your own state and not assume your actions will be legal, only to find out after the fact that you were wrong. One reference that I do know of is : Martial Arts and the Law by Attorney Pat Merriman http://www.turtlepress.com/cgi-local/shop.pl/page=malb.htm/SID=433413066164 Does anybody else know of good information on legal issues for Martial Arts and/or self-defense? Mark M. Smith Merrimack, NH email: msmith@p2software.com ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:56:17 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The New, Revised, MA Style Of The Future! A little commentary on Wan Soo Do: "Chi or Ki ( depending on whether you are Chinese or Japanese ), is an oriental power which exists in everyone." Hmmm. My ancestors were English and Scottish, but they may have ridden on the Orient Express. Could they have received their Chi there? "It is similar to blood and flows through lines of Chi in the body." Lines of Chi? I thought those were stretch marks. "It is the power which is supposed to keep you alive." "Supposed to" is the key here. Unfortunately it doesn't always work right, and that is where we get managers and lawyers. "Everyone is born with an amount of Chi from their parents. As you grow old, the Chi is slowly used up, so when there is no more left, you die." Let's see. We give Chi to our children. So, we must be using it up when we have kids. And, since we males don't know until after the fact whether offspring ensue, this makes perhaps the best argument I've heard yet against masturbation and recreational sex. You do it, you die! It is not similar to the soul and the theory does not alter existing religions, it just adds to them. Just like money. Kerry ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:46:30 EST Subject: the_dojang: Hitting girls. ; ) > >sparring with women to be very awkward, as I am afraid of causing an injury. > > >It has happened that as the intensity is turned up, I respond in kind, and > an > >injury resulted. > > Seriously, if injury occurred, the odds are that one or both of you > was/were lacking in control at that time. Last year, there was quite some discussion about who is at fault when someone is hurt. In our dojang, the policy was if you got hit, the person who struck/kicked/injured you was at fault because they need to be aware of where their position is at all times. Even if you are standing with your punch out for one steps and the other person walks into your stationary fist, you should have been alert enough to pull your hand back. Now, my personal take is that it was my fault for not blocking/defending properly when I got hit. The classic was the day I was sparring and literally moved right into a punch in the face. (Yes, I had a wonderful greenish- yellowish-purplish bruise down the left side of my face during my first date with my sweetie...he was polite enough not to notice it through the best makeup job my friends could do.) The person who punched me was warned for contact to the face *but* it wasn't his fault from my perspective. There is only one person (so far) that I have ever run into that I faulted for hitting/kicking me and that was a lower rank that fought as hard as she could not matter what. She also used to hit "below the belt" or in illegal areas. I had bruises in some...ah....sensitive areas from her. One black belt finally lost it after months of explaining you don't use full power ... you aren't supposed to kick there ... etc. This woman kicked one of the guys in the family jewels and the black belt lost it. She purposely called the woman over to spare and took her down hard. She then explained, without control, people get hurt. She toned down a lot after that, but a lot of us had to get hurt before she figured it out the hard way. Man, woman, child... you never know who (if any) will attack you. If you can't hit a woman in class, what makes you think you can in a parking lot? If you think a woman can't break a man's grip on their wrist, what happens when one does grab them that isn't practicing? When you sign up for a martial arts class, you accept the fact that you will get hit, you will be bruised and that you will tolerate this as part of your training. Tang Soo! karla ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:34:53 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: 1st sparring competition Doug wrote: >> I have been taking TKD lessons since the 1st week of January. To give you some background on me, I am a athletic 32 year old male. I seem to be taking to the lessons very well and look forward to the next. Lately, my master is doing the full-court-press on me to sign up for the sparring part of a competition being held in a couple of weeks. I am starting to think that he is only concerned about cash flow! . Each week, in sparring class, I am continually the punching bag for higher belts. There is no one of the same rank in the class. My moves are slower, not as advanced and I'm having difficulty with strategy of fighting in general. My body doen't move as fast as my mind. Not having ever compteted before, should I sign up? I don't want to be embaressed. Thank you for any help. Doug C. >> First of all, Doug, you have probably already received a lot of replies (I'm quite behind on reading), and none of us can assess your abilities without knowing you or know what your instructor's concerns/agenda are without knowing him/her. But it is entiredly possible your instructor wants you to do this precisely to get expierience competing with other beginners to help you build your confidence. This would seem to be a larger consideration than a $5 fee for compet in an extra event. If you have only been in TKD 2-3 months it is no wonder you feel slower and weak on strategy if you are always up against people with much more experience. As to them using you as a punching bag, one hopes you meant this metaphorically and they are not causing you injuries. It is the responsibility of a more advanced student to exercise control, and of the instructor to see that they do. Howev er if you just mean that it seems like they are always "scoring on you" more than you can on them, don't sweat it. It takes time. You mention you are athletic and you probably have high expectations of yourself to learn quickly. This is good, but don't beat yourself up (in addition to the beating you are already taking :) for needing a learning curve! If you decide to compete, I wish you the best of luck! Sandy West Allis, WI - -- tokay@netwurx.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:45:17 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The Gentleman Factor Mr. Angilly, I think in your signature, you said it all: *No one ever rises to low expectations.* This is not meant to advocate that you go around looking to commit serious injury to people half your size, but in sparring people get kicked and punched. People are also generally taught to exercise reasonable control. Somtimes those kicks and punches will hurt though, and even us women need to learn from that sometimes :) Sandy West Allis, WI - -- tokay@netwurx.net ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:53:20 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Rank <> Rank is a rather abstract concept, and should in no way play a part regarding the expression of ones honest free thoughts. We are living in the free world, not militarized Korea or Japan 20-60 years ago. Besides, the historicity of rank "lineage" is itself rather shakey, and organizations/people have, time and again bestowed these jewels upon their friends, family and countrymen while leaving other equally or more deserving individuals out of the picture. - --C.J. ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:57:16 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: More on Title IX <> USA Wrestling actually sponsors national and international women's competitions (the serious, real thing--Grecco-Roman, Olympic Style, Freestyle Wrestling, not the silly "pro-wrestling" b.s.). Interest is growing, but as with all sports which were considered "male dominated", since publicity is generally scarce, few girls hear about these things, and unaware the opportunities exist, the thought never enters their mind to give wrestling a try. <> There is also a college somewhere in the upper midwest which has a superb women's team, which competes nationally & internationally, though the name escapes me right now. I remember when I went to try out for wrestling in Jr. High (with a background which included some judo, and some YMCA coaching), and after being stared at for a while, and wondering why the coach had left, I was escorted out by the female vice principle and told that it was against school policy for girls to compete against boys in "contact sports". If I had known then what I know now, I would have created a big stink--"school policy" was illegal under state constitution, even 15 years ago. But I joined the track team, and the rest is history. <> Me personally, and most of the "sisters" I know, would prefer to compete against other women--not that practicing w/ guys isn't great training! Usually women compete against men only when there is a shortage of girls/women. Now, in wrestling/other m.a. this is often accepted because classifications are by weight division, but there are other considerations, too. When we look at sports like ice hocky, of course the women generally end up playing with the men--after all, how many women's ice hocky teams are out there? Of course, after all of the publicity during the most recent Winter Olympics, I predict that in the next 20 years, we'll see a real surge in women's participation, and the formation of many more all-female teams as little girls grow up dreaming of winning an ice hocky gold medal in the olympics. Since "real" wrestling doesn't usually get that much press to begin with, it'll be up to community coaches to encourage little girls as well as little boys to be like Bruce Baumgartner and Tricia Saunders. <> It takes about 20 years (1 full generation) for a sport to open itself to female competitors after the first few struggle, set a precident, and show that they can't be cowed into quitting. Consider what the first women and girls competing in martial arts went through. I always laugh when I read old articles in Blackbelt, etc. which have titles like, "She's a fighter, but still a woman" (Duuuuuh), and "Should women be given black belts?", If y'all can excuse the digression, it reminds me a bit about the Bishops at the council of Macon during the 6th century, who took a vote to decide whether or not women had souls. All rather silly and ignorant. <> I doubt it. While the courts have supported women entering "men's sports" when no equvalent is available (baseball, football, wrestling, water polo), or when there is an extreme shortage of female athletes, they have denied the reverse--that is, men coming into "women's sports", such as field hockey (which is considered a unisex or men's sport everywhere else in the world), women's gymnastics events (Uneven bars, beam as opposed to rings, horse), and softball. I think the idea is that the court perceives the need for exceptional women to be allowed into sports for which there is no __exact__girls/women's equivalent--where they are still perceived to be at somewhat of a physical or social disadvantage, but it's tough to offer the same arguement for men ('He couldn't make baseball, so now we're encouraging our son to try out for the softball team'). It's much harder to justify, which doesn't mean that it's ultimately fair. I have more ideas on this, and have come to many of my own conclusions as a former college athlete, ostensibly protected by title 9 (and what does and doesn't work), but enough for now. - --C.J. ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:02:06 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Constitution, etc. <<. . .studies and reports show that an armed population (or at least a population that have the "right" to carry a concealed weapon) exhibits a LOWER incidence of violent crime! [Mark]>> Sorry, having a background in criminal justice and statistics, this study and others of its sort (pro or con) are fundamentally flawed. It is practically impossible to measure such things. <> Most criminals don't stop to consider such things. You might--I might, the average crook generally does not see a mark go by and say thoughtfully to himself, "Hmm. . .is he packing?". I'm sure though, that after knocking someone over the head from behind, and searching his/her backpack, purse, or pockets and finding a handgun --and-- cash/credit cards, the crook will be mightliy pleased--and hopefully, none too upset!!! As for rights--read your Constitution, don't assume that like a religious document, it means whatever you want it to at any given time. Our (U.S.) courts, including our Supreme court, has _never_ read the second ammendment to mean that we, the people have the right to arbitrarily bear weaponry. The nature of our nation has changed (for better and worse), we no longer need a militia composed of everyone in town to protect our nation from those mean ol' redcoats (apologies to UK readers), and "Militia", one of the capitalized words in this Ammendment ("people" is not capitalized), refers to our national guards and military. Not my personal interpretation, that of the jurists who have passed down caselaw over the past couple centuries. Sorry to go on about this again. <> Actually, crime rates tend to go up when there is a higher ratio of police officers to the citizenry they protect--more eyes and ears to detect and record crime, you know. Many nations with supposed low crime rates are either understaffed, composed of corrupt forces the people don't trust, or have no reliable national system for reporting and recording crimes. <> Law makers have not, thus far, been able to subvert the US Constitution. The Judicial branch would not allow this. Laws relating to concealed weapons, what sort of weapons one may own, etc. are generally the territory of state legislators, and not our federal legislative bodies, although some Federal acts regarding weapons possession, shipping, waiting periods, etc. have been passed. For example, Alabama may vote to ban all firearms from the state without causing Constitutional affront. But California may not act to subvert federal background check proceedure without breaking federal mandate (which is not forbidden by Constitution). Nor may Connecticut try to disarm the Utah national guard. Yeah, this legal stuff can get strange. People I suppose, will see their "rights" in just about everything. . . - --C.J. ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:09:30 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: excellent blackbelts In a message dated 3/10/99 Master Silz wrote: <> Yes, I had the pleasure of studying with this particular Grandmaster. I came to his school as an ITF-style blackbelt. He adjudged me a brown belt. The only time in 3 months we sparred in his class, I literally kicked all of the black belts around. He did produce excellent black belts-their forms were pretty, and their techniques were strong. But they couldn't spar. One of my friends trained with GM S for nearly 17 years. Now, his (my friend's) students participate in both sport karate and USTU events. This person's school is replete with traditional, hard nosed training. But they put on the pads every night as well. My $ 0.02. Take Care, Peter M. mjmpmm@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:55:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Just the facts > <<. . .studies and reports show that an armed population (or at least a > population that have the "right" to carry a concealed weapon) exhibits a > LOWER incidence of violent crime! [Mark]>> > > Sorry, having a background in criminal justice and statistics, this study > and others of its sort (pro or con) are fundamentally flawed. It is > practically impossible to measure such things. This is not the place to discuss this. But... based on my recollection of my Masters in Stats, your above comment is incorrect. > < not, why would they be willing to risk their own neck for something > minor. No, I FIRMLY believe that giving potential victims the right to > defend themselves promotes a safer society. Criminals will ALWAYS get > weapons, laws only prevent to honest person from getting what is > rightfully (according to the U.S. Constitution) theirs. Why would anyone > want the criminals to have the upper hand?>> > > Most criminals don't stop to consider such things. You might--I might, the Actually, surveys of those in prison show that they do consider such things. > As for rights--read your Constitution, don't assume that like a religious > document, it means whatever you want it to at any given time. Our (U.S.) > courts, including our Supreme court, has _never_ read the second ammendment > to mean that we, the people have the right to arbitrarily bear weaponry. > The nature of our nation has changed (for better and worse), we no longer > need a militia composed of everyone in town to protect our nation from > those mean ol' redcoats (apologies to UK readers), and "Militia", one of > the capitalized words in this Ammendment ("people" is not capitalized), > refers to our national guards and military. Not my personal > interpretation, that > of the jurists who have passed down caselaw over the past couple centuries. Again false. The National Guard concept came about a century later and the Founding Fathers were not in favor of a standing military. The Militia in the 2nd is the unorganized militia, as later defined in the US Code (10 USC 311, 10 USC 312, and 32 USC 313). Remember that Yamamoto, having been schooled in the US, talked the Japanese warlords out of invading the US mainland. They could have defeated our armed forces (in the early stages of WWII), but Yamamoto advised them that they would never defeat our 'society of armed sportsmen'. > < crime increase as the number of martial arts practitioners increased? > No. In reality, we are ALL carrying dangerous weapons - they just are > not concealed, per se, as they are our arms and legs! Did Korea of years > gone by have people randomly punching and kicking each other in the > streets (okay, aside from war-time, and all the "My-do school vs. > Your-do school" movies)? I think not!>> The obvious difference here is a person is committing a crime, you state halt or I'll come over there and kick you. Now replace that with, halt or I'll shoot you from here. What do you do? 99% of the criminals in the later case halt the crime. Just the facts. Now, please, back to KMA. I'll be good if you will... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:17:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #149 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.