From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #150 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 14 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 150 In this issue: the_dojang: patch thanks! the_dojang: Re: Just Like a Woman the_dojang: Timid fighter the_dojang: that gentleman factor again the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #149 the_dojang: Response to Dawne from Jamaica re: GM manners the_dojang: Sparring Thoughts From Both Genders the_dojang: Re: ooops the_dojang: Unwanted Visitors the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:12:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: patch thanks! Thanks to Karla for sending a patch from the International Tang Soo Do Federation. Much appreciated! Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Paul Rogers Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:06:32 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Just Like a Woman >>> Just Like a Woman presents the cutting-edge findings in anthropology, physiology, psychology, neuroscience, endocrinology, and medicine that are redefining what a woman is. <<< Wow, complex. I thought they were just the most awesome organisms on the planet... 8?) On the subject of sparring with same, our sparring is non-, or more accurately, incidental-contact. I usually wind up accidently backfisting my partner in the breast area (missing the sternum); they keep moving on me...I say Sorry, they say No problem, and we continue... Paul "Going on holiday with two of my favorite females (wife, daughter)" Rogers Round Rock, TX (ATA) ------------------------------ From: "Kenneth W. Legendre" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:54:55 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Timid fighter Hello All Im looking for some suggestions. There is a young woman at our school who is a yellow belt. She does not like to fight at all. As for a reason, Im not quite sure. She is one of the best students that we have at or near her rank, both male or female. The last time she fought she was fighting one of our advanced students and he got a little carried away and caught her with an ax kick on the shoulder. This combined with her fear of fighting sent her away from the DoJang for 2 weeks. My question is how do you get a person that is that afraid of fighting to spar, or you just try and work with that person until they overcome that fear. Any and all suggestions will be welcome, except maybe feed her to the wolves. I dont think she'll play along with that one. : ) Ken Legendre 2nd Dan TKD kwlegen@ilstu.edu ------------------------------ From: Leslie Harris Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:55:37 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: that gentleman factor again Thanks, Scott for clarifying your notion of how you spar (and how you spar when you spar women): (" I _do_ try to confine my body target to just above the belt, and I try to exercise a little extra control if a technique might strike above that area. If taking the anatomical differences between human males and human female into account as part of my control "equation" makes me sexist in your opinion, so be it. I don't agree, and I don't believe any of the women with whom I train would, either.") I jumped to the apparent conclusion that you were throwing in with the fellow who doesn't want to "hit a woman." As if a woman didn't come to the MA sparring class with the understanding that hitting was part of the package, thus making injury a risk (I agree with Karla's post on that one). No, I don't consider your exercising control in sparring to be sexist. I consider it to be respectful, regardless of the rank, size, age, or sex of your opponent. Refusing to spar an opponent because of any of those factors, on the other hand, deprives everyone involved of the learning experience we seek when we enter the school. Thanks for clarifying. Leslie 1st Dan, TKD ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:18:37 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #149 Mr. Scott Miller wrote: "I figure with a senora-a-senora match, equitable retaliation is available and obvious. To refine the context a bit, our sparring is moderate contact stop point. Sparring for us is much more for refining TSD techniques than for developing self-defense or street fighting capabilities. " You are sparring to refine TSD techniques, not develop self-defense skills. Are you then practicing TSD as an art form as distinguished from a martial art. Sparring should necessarily benefit self-defense skills, if only because of aerobic improvement (this is the "default answer"). Am I reading this too closely? Practicing poomsae/hyung/tul is a good way to refine technique. Sparring should be the application of realistic (within boundaries unless you are into NHB) technique against an unwilling opponent. Take Care, Peter M. mjmpmm@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:47:18 PST Subject: the_dojang: Response to Dawne from Jamaica re: GM manners Jamaica, Believe me when I say I am not taking issue with you at all but I do have questions. MY questions arise from a conversation I recently had with a woman(American) invited to dine in a Korean home with lots of martial artists present. Again, I'm not trying to piss you off, on the contrary you may have the answers. Now... I don't understand i) - leave without saying thank you. Can you expand on this? h) may be difficult but is very polite. I don't understand the purpose of e), to keep the GM free for conversation with the higerups or to be polite or what? Now for THE question. Do you say serve food with the Mrs. because you personally are a woman? Because you were a new bb or what? My very goodfriend said in her experience(s) the MRS. never came out of the kitchen. As an American she didn't like it, it felt uncomfortable. However, she didn't say anything b/c she's not ethnocentric. She did however expect to REMAIN in the front room, after all she was an invited guest. She was treated quite well and for most of the evening was in culture shock of a sort. I should mention that Korean was the language of choice that eve. so joining in the conversation was not possible. I invite your answer/comments. Dawne +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Hi Dawne - Would be very happy to answer your questions from my perspective. Always enjoy your sincere posts and your willingness to share so freely your personal experiences and feelings. I think you read right into the heart of my post. My experiences seem to be very similar to your friends although mine happened about 13 years ago when I received one of my first black belts. Yes it is quite a culture shock. First your question about leaving without saying thank you. I think across the board for all cultures we should always do that. I made it a point to bow out and thank my GM for inviting me to his house on this special occasion. I do understand how that "ushering out" can occur leaving the guest to feel rude. At this point I would immediately have followed up with a thank you card and a small gift. When I said should you schmooze with other family and friends at the risk of ignoring the GM I was being a bit sarcastic. Schmoozing is of course, a real websters dictionary word meaning to engage in light chit chat and gossip. I would avoid this at all costs. I would keep all conversation light and let the other blackbelts lead the discussion since I was the newcomer on the block. When I was at the dinner many were engaged in lots of private and light conversation. They were comfortable. They had been here before. I chose to remain silent and listen and learn and then entertain some light, friendly, non-political conversation at this point. Usually just speaking if spoken to (by choice). Observing can sometimes be a great teacher. The table was set in the small front room and it was low to the floor meaning we sat on the floor. I took off my shoes just as I would if I entered your house because that is the way I was brought up, not to get dirt on someone elses carpet. However in the Korean house I did also notice all the other blackbelts had piled up their workout shoes which was also a good indication that I should do likewise. The GM's wife and other family members were very, very, very busy in the kitchen cooking the most splendid meal for all of us. And you're correct they never came out of the kitchen except to put food on the table. Now my upbringing was very strict. In my family when I was a child if someone had to come and get you to "help out in the kitchen," well let's just say it was too late and my hide would be more than sore for a long, long time. So culturally it was difficult for me not to offer assistance. But I had just tested for blackbelt and I was given a private invitation to attend this dinner as a guest. I understood this was a special invite that never everybody got. I also looked about and noticed nobody else was helping out in this respect so I did not either which turned out to be the correct choice. I also knew that many of these blackbelts were very courteous and graticous, and if it was appropriate they certainly would have been helping out. I found out later it would have offended the GM and his family if I did start cooking and cleaning and serving. I understood later that this dinner was, so to speak, "my party," thrown in my honor and I was to relax and have a good time in appreciation for some of my work. At the time it was a surprise to me and I didn't understand that. While at this party the conversation was both Korean and American I had also been at other parties where the Korean language dominated. And at those I just played it my ear as your friend did. But what I did do later, was learn Korean. And I learned it quite well. Which came in handy at tournaments and while travelling whether I was a spectator, ref, or coach. I must say I delighted when at a tournament others would be talking in Korean making "wise cracks" so to speak; not knowing I understood the language and when I came back with an answer the look on the faces of the gossipers was priceless. Guess we should never assume anything, should we? Learning Korean also helped in my communication with other GM's. Although I can remember one GM where we always understood each other without saying a word. Sometimes you just connect with people. Something interesting though, this particular GM and his family were always so incredible to me. So sometimes when we would be working long hours together his son would go out and make the fast food run for me and bring back a hardees burger or something when I would have preferred a Korean takeout. And sometimes the GM and his wife would take me to a local Korean restaurant, (menu in Korean, waitresses talked in Korean, etc.) And the funny thing is they were so willing, so beautiful and so wanted me to be comfortable that they would order me the closest thing to "American food" on the menu, while they ate the fish with the head on and other foods. The funny thing is - at that point I was already eating almost 100% Korean food and would have preferred the same dishes they were eating. So we were both trying so hard, so desperately to please each other in our own ways. Guess it all boils down to respect and not wanting to hurt one another and so desperately wanting to understand one another. They were trying as hard as I was. We are still good friends to this day. Dawne, if this didn't answer your questions, please ask some more. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:04:25 PST Subject: the_dojang: Sparring Thoughts From Both Genders FWIW, I agree with the more experienced women who have posted that sparring should be an issue of skill and not gender. Common sense tells us that would- be attackers are often big guys. However, I'm not afraid to admit that I thought it was thoughtful of you to consider it. The same way that I consider sparring a man MUCH taller than me - I have to be very, very careful to *keep my kicks up* no matter how tired I may be or how inflexible my hips really are. Dawne +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I think it is very important that you both brought up this subject. While I advocated to Keith to spar with women I also emphasized control and technique. I have been injured many times. To name a few I received 3 broken ribs while wearing a vest, sparring a male partner. I was kicked in the sternum full force by a young, large, male black belt after a demo without a vest on (let's not even talk about the injury I sustained). And I have had my fair share of swollen legs and arms to the point it was difficult to walk. I've had quite a few other injuries but I think you get the picture. I think women should always wear single if not double vests when sparring. I think the undergarment protectors they have for women should be totally redesigned, the chest protectors and groin protectors. Sometimes I think the designer of these protective garments must have been the same person that designed for the pop singer Madonna on her earlier tours. The injuries that can occur to both sexes can be quite painful. I think that should always be foremost in our minds. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:27:30 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: ooops some idiot accidentally posted these to tkd-net...oh...i guess it was me...hehe. but anyway, here they are now, if even a bit tardy: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:04:39 EST From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Subject: tkd-net: Re:cycling hogus (sounds like a circus act) dawne wrote: <> thanks dawne. we sometimes had 6 or 8 sparring in my old gm's dojang. still, cycling out is great. and with a little instructor prodding "hurry up, trade off your hogus, help the other person get untied", etc, it really doesnt take long at all. melinda - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:07:30 EST From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Subject: tkd-net: Re: quote credit <<*No one ever rises to low expectations.* keith, great quote. to whom can we credit it? i'd like to keep that one :) Melinda, Thank you for bringing the lack of credit to my attention. I heard it a meeting of Golf Course Superintendents here in Connecticutt. The speaker was the coach of the MASS football team, Tom(?) Whipple >> thanks keith! :) melinda chunjido@aol.com - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:17:51 EST From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Subject: tkd-net: Re: who hit whom << Even if you are standing with your punch out for one steps and the other person walks into your stationary fist, you should have been alert enough to pull your hand back.>> aw, dang....that throws my old, "but ma, i threw the snowball, and he just happened to run into it" excuse. actually, it's nice to see a trend in personal responsibility. melinda chunjido@aol.com - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:24:51 EST From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Subject: tkd-net: Re: fundamentally flawed? <> hmm...me too, john. graduating with honours in two months in the administration of justice (studyin since 1989). it is possible to measure these things. its hard to say what is causal or corellary, though. we can say with certainty that it is corellary, but cannot do so with the causal factor. which studies are you referring to? just curious. course this really isnt a KMA topic is it? perhaps private e-mail discussion would be more appropriate? melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:14:19 PST Subject: the_dojang: Unwanted Visitors Once in awhile you will see this scenario on TV, however I think it could become more of a reality everyday. We all have discussed how each person in our class and each black belt in the class is there to achieve to their own potential. However, the myth which is more than supported today in the movies and TV is that the martial artist is still someone to be reckoned with (and for sure this is true for some of us). But what would you do if a gang came to your school to visit unexpectedly and perhaps challenged your class? Now we sometimes think this can only happen in the rougher neighborhoods but let's face it even drug gangs have moved into upper middle class neighborhoods and frequently get bored and look for a challenge. Just wondering if we're prepared. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:52:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #150 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.