From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #154 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 17 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 154 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #153 the_dojang: TSD Again the_dojang: Happy St. Patty's Day! the_dojang: Fear of Sparring the_dojang: Helping someone to spar the_dojang: Re: V6 #153: space invaders BOUNCE the_dojang: Admin request (fwd) Re: the_dojang: Fear of Sparring the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Giddins Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:44:43 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #153 >snip> and someone doesn't spar - they should NOT be promoted. >What does everyone else think of that comment? Anyone agree with that? >Tang Soo! No. Tang Soo right back at ya. Sparring is an enjoyable exercise for most, but should never, EVER be forced on an individual. There is a big dfference between TKD and TSD in this matter. TKD is all about sparring, and so I would imagine many TKD schools would have the philosophy "If you aren't sparring, you aren't training" and most TSD students would retch at that idea. Tang Soo Do is all about forms, and most have the philiosophy "If you aren't doing your forms you aren't training" and most TKD students would scoff at this idea. Greg Giddins ggiddins@ossinc.net Man is at his best in helping others: at his worst in bettering others. ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:50:22 PST Subject: the_dojang: TSD Again I have enjoyed the recent mature tone of the discussion on various points of MDK history and thought it might be a good time to ask a question a student of mine once asked and I never had a complete answer. Does anyone know how many [and who] 9th dans have been promoted by GM Hwang Kee in TSD/SBD/MDK? Please provide your sources in your response. Many Thanks. Dana Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:19:56 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Happy St. Patty's Day! Here's a quick jab to start your St. Patrick's Day off right. Have good and safe one everybody. Jeremy "St. Patricks Day Joke" An English Clergyman turned to a Scotchman and asked : "What would you be if you were not Scot?" The Scotchman said: "Why, an Englishman, of course!" Then the clergyman turned to a gentleman from Ireland and asked him: " And what would you be were you not an Irishman?" The man thought a moment and said: "I'd be ashamed of meself!" ------------------------------ From: "Michael Sarles" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:58:45 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Fear of Sparring > Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:59:18 EST > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #152 > > Tang Soo! > snip>Like Bruce Lee stated once "Learning a martial art and not sparring is like practicing to > swim and never getting in the water." This is a great quote, but I myself would put it another > way. I would say that sparring is like practicing to shoot a gun - I would never practice > on my friends, I would aim at a target, and hope that I never have to > use the gun in real life. I left the quote alone...it wasn't mine to begin with - so I didn't try to change it. > When I worked on Wall Street in the early 1980's, I was sexually > accosted in the subway after leaving work. My reaction then was to freeze. I > did not fight or scream, I just froze. I did not know any MA then. Now, I can > throw a great punch, I can block a punch, but most important is that I would > react and fight back. I do not believe that sparring techniques would do me the > least bit of good against a mugging or these sorts of street violence. I would like to > learn more self-defense though, because that is what I think is > practical in my life. I am not going to kid myself into believing that I can > ever spar my way out of a mugging or rape. Without some reality training - (the same amount of anger, rage, emotional-high, using a technique on someone MUCH STRONGER THAN YOURSELF, etc.) I wouldn't kid yourself into thinking that your SD techniques are going to work either. > Is there a history as to the purpose of sparring as a form of self-defense > against someone who is not also sparring? I think sparring should be a tool that allows a student to test their technique, form, response, etc. in an environment that is going to be as close to a real life situation as one can get in a school. I think it's just a gauge. People have been using it as a gauge for thousands of years. For me, I've only been doing this for a little over 10 years. I'm not going to try to start second-guessing teachers, with much more knowledgeable than myself, about the right and wrong way to teach a MARTIAL ART. > snip>No disrepect meant, but what are you a 4th Gup in? If you > don't at least > >attempt sparring, how do you know you can actually apply what you have > >learned? > I am 4th gup in Tang Soo Do, and I don't believe that you should > even attempt to diminish my progress based on my perception of why I chose to > learn MA. I love forms and self defense techniques. I do not like the violence of > sparring, and that is my choice and opinion, but I am still just > as much a 4th gup as any other. Before you become too accusatory, you should look at my question. I wasn't diminishing anything. But if the founders of a style or organiation define criteria for promotion or cirriculum - it shouldn't be up to the student to change or re-define these criteria. Is the sparring in your school full-contact?...I could understand the fear of ~real~ injury. If it is non-contact, how is it more violent than practicing SD techniques that involve to throwing someone to the floor or throwing a technique that has the violent possibility of crushing a throat, gouging an eye, breaking a bone, destroying a joint? I've seen people get hurt practicing SD techniques - should I now stop all students from doing SD techniques because of the possiblity of injury? I've also seen students get hurt while holding a focus pad. Their partner misses the target, takes a spinning hook kick to the forearm and it breaks. Should I stop students now from practicing kicking drill because of the possibility of injury. Maybe all schools should just practice forms...that is until someone injures themselves doing forms - then we can spend all of our time kneeling on the floor. > I understand though, that Ken's dilemma is that his student has > not given it a > good try yet, and I agree that she cannot make a sound decision > right now. My > point was to explain that sometimes it is a deep heartfelt > emotion that keeps > someone from sparring and perhaps there is something more to it. > Maybe time > will give her the confidence to try it again. > > snip> and someone doesn't spar - they should NOT be promoted. > > What does everyone else think of that comment? Anyone agree with that? Your taking me out of context was nicely done. What do other people think about this statement? In it's original context not just what was snipped ) the question was posed that if a school requires a student to spar to attain a certain rank and they don't spar, then they should be promoted. I'm curious of what you think. Peace, Michael Sarles msarles@ior.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Sarles" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:25:41 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Helping someone to spar Here is one way that I worked with a woman to get her into sparring when the idea of it scared her... * We started some private classes...just her and I. I didn't want to do this in sparring class with other people sparring around us. * We started off standing opposite of each other, with me throwing a punch and her blocking it. Eventually we got to the point where she blocked and countered. There was no other movement going on at this point - we are just standing facing each other. * She would throw a punch at me (oh yeah, the punch could also be a grab or palm strike) and I would block then eventually started countering. * We started the same thing with ONLY a front, side or roundhouse kick. The attacker could throw what they wanted - the defender could block and counter with what they wanted. * At this point it stilled looked like our regular self-defense training method. We also stopped after each attack / block / counter exchange. * Next the attacker could throw either the punch/grab/palm heel or side/front/round attack. It was up to the defender to decide what technique they wanted to block and counter with. But the defender now didn't know what was coming; a hand or foot technique. * After this became comfortable - we changed our stance. We faced each other in either a non-assuming stance OR a 'fighting' stance - whatever each person felt comfortable with. Repeated the same drills. * After we became comfortable with this - we started moving (linear) a little - but would still stop after a attack - block - counter exchange. * After that we started added circling to our moving - still stopping after an attack - block - counter exchange. * Next we moved to continuous movement / attacking / blocking / countering for 30 seconds at 1/4 speed. Eventually the pace was picked up and the time increased. * Anne moved into sparring after 2 weeks (after being terribly afraid of it) and now enjoys it. She asked if she could do some light contact sparring (just to see what it felt like - with pads) and feels that her overall MA ability has improved. She notices when her response time is slow (from missing some classes or due to an illness or something) or when her response time is fast from her effort in training. All this training/sparring was non-contact except where mentioned. Not saying this is right or wrong - just seemed to work for us. Peace, Michael Sarles msarles@ior.com ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:20:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #153: space invaders Jamaica wrote: >I would like to clarify and add a few more comments regarding my post on >gangs (unwanted visitors to the dojang). > >Once these individuals are in your door your school is already at risk. > If the dojang building is in an area where this kind of incident is a realistic possibility, why isn't it physically secured? Locked during active classtime, open foyer with buzzer admission to the studio, etc. An ounce of prevention, and all that. > >I can also see other situations occurring. Depending on your blackbelts >- - both fear and feisty-ness can bring out the worse or the best in >people. Sometimes youthful blackbelts are very willing to accept the >challenge of others. Perhaps they even know these others and that is >why your school was chosen. So it could be out of the instructors >control at that point as to how quickly and intensely a confrontation >takes place (if at all). Also, if students are going around school challenging bad a**es for sport (my extension of your hypothesis), they aren't "getting" the program. They need some reminding about the "character" aspects of m.a., and if that doesn't take, perhaps the hypothetical dojang doesn't need such students. > >I also think, depending on how your school is arranged that some of the >mixed classes are at risk. Lots of schools (moms and dads) bring their >backpacks and wallets and workout bags and throw them on the floor with >all their belongings nicely inside. Easy makings/easy marks. > >And sometimes depending in what part of a city or town you are located >or if you are in a rural secluded area, the cops will not be able to get >to your school quickly even if someone did call them. > Again, physical security of the school is paramount if this is a serious risk because of location or whatever. WRT to personal belongings, building security takes care of outsiders. If there is an internal theft problem, the school should provide lockers and attempt to id and deal with the culprits. >Thanks for listening but for me the no brainers are the things in life >that really can cause us problems because they look simpler than they >really are. Not necessarily a no-brainer, but I do think it's solvable. Has anyone on the list actually had a similar experience? Tang Soo! Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@cyberenet.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:09:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Admin request (fwd) Forwarded message: >From the_dojang-owner Wed Mar 17 14:18:01 1999 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:18:01 -0500 (EST) To: the_dojang-owner Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Admin request From fdegree@dmv.com Wed Mar 17 11:18:00 1999 From: "CALLAHAN" To: Subject: Re: The Great Tang Soo Do Debate Continues... Why? Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:07:12 -0500 For give me if this seems out of line. But, I can't seem to figure out why it is important, for all of us who subscribe to the Dojang Digest, to be subjected to the personal confrontations between Mr. Hancock and D. Segarra. This discussion between them does not appear to have originated here, so why bring into "our house". I'm sorry but I feel since it is between them, it should remain between them or, at least, in the forum form which it originated. Forgive me if I'm overlooking something that would require it to be broadcast here, because I have chosen not to read the majority of the posts on this particular discussion. Chris Callahan "Violence when there is an alternative, is immoral; Violence when there is no alternative, is survival" ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:16:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Fear of Sparring > What do other people think about this statement? In it's original context > not just what was snipped ) the question was posed that if a school > requires a student to spar to attain a certain rank and they don't spar, > then they should be promoted. I'm curious of what you think. I was in a school that did this for awhile. You not only had to spar, you had to take a 1st place to get your 1st Dan. And not only in sparring but in forms, too. !!! You stayed a Gym Blackbelt until you accomplished these feats, then you received your Kukkiwon. That lasted a few years until the Master finally realized that his standards for 1st Dan were just a weeeee bit too lofty. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:18:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #154 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. 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