From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #155 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thurs, 18 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 155 In this issue: BOUNCE the_dojang: Admin request (fwd) the_dojang: Sparring the_dojang: Re: TheGentleman Factor: part II the_dojang: Do Your Students Watch Your Test? the_dojang: The Great Tang Soo Do Debate Continues... Why? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #154 the_dojang: Re: V6 #154: required sparring the_dojang: Re: V6 #154: TSD history debate appropriate? the_dojang: RE: Fear of Sparring the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #154 the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:23:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Admin request (fwd) Forwarded message: >From the_dojang-owner Wed Mar 17 20:12:00 1999 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:11:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Admin request > For give me if this seems out of line. But, I can't seem to figure out why > it is important, for all of us who subscribe to the Dojang Digest, to be > subjected to the personal confrontations between Mr. Hancock and D. > Segarra. This discussion between them does not appear to have originated > here, so why bring into "our house". I agree the posts are getting a little long. My guess is this is probably more interesting to the TSD/SBD folks that it is to the TKD/HKD/KSW/HRD folks. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: burdickd Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:31:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Sparring For me, sparring is a great drill, but not an end unto itself. It IS important (because it teaches distance control, timing, and guarding) but it is NOT simulated fighting (because of all the high kicks, and, in tkd, very limited use of hand attacks). As far as the historical development, the Japanese began sparring in the 1930s under the influence of Gogen Yamaguchi and others who believed that 1, 2, and 3 step set sparring was inadequate to prepare fighters. Sparring until the 1960s was either full-contact (Kyokushinkai Karate under Mas Oyama) or (theoretically) no contact. The amount of contact in these "no contact" matches got out of hand in the 1960s, so Jhoon Rhee introduced Safe-T-Punch in the 1970s and Safe-T-Kick. These were intended to reduce damage from accidental contact, but soon were adopted as "protection" for full-contact bouts, which were being promoted by Joe Lewis and later by the PKA and other kickboxing bodies. TKD full contact sparring used a different approach, padding the target rather than the weapon. Does anyone have anything else to add? Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick PS: I prefer point fighting in order to limit injuries and allow various weight classes to spar with each other, but do believe that some full-contact training is necessary in order to learn to take a hit. ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:04:15 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: TheGentleman Factor: part II Carolyn wrote: In response to Keith's concerns I would like to note that his concerns are certainly common. When sparring a new member to our school the other night I was struck by the caution he used. I had watch him sparring with other students and he was quite aggressive. However, when we were paired together he was very tentative. He is a seventh gup and so I don't think he's concerned about knowing more material than I. It is especially frustrating to be sparred easily because I'm a woman since the very time when I may need to use my training will most likely be against a man who is substantially larger than me. All of the other men in our school spar very aggressively whether they are sparring a man or a woman. Sure I leave class bruised and sore on occasion but I greatly appreciate the lessons it teaches me. Thanks, Carolyn Spetland 1st gup, TSDMGK Thank you for your response, Carolyn. My initial post has generated a reasonable amount of responses, from which I gained two valuable insights: 1. It is very important for me to give my utmost effort, no matter whom I am training with. 2. The answer for me is to spar with great effort, yet to be very controlled. There is no question that up to this point I have applied different levels of effort toward different opponents (very high against kodanja and dans, very low against lower color belts, particularly women opponents). The key is control, particularly the control of power (him cho chung). thanks again, and good luck TANG SOO! Keith A. Angilly 4th Gup TSDMGK New Haven, CT kangilly@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:17:24 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Do Your Students Watch Your Test? < When going for a higher level of blackbelt do you let your students watch all parts of your test? Does your GM care? Do you invite your students and parents and friends to watch? .....Do you have a celebration afterwards with your GM? Thanks>> Jamacia, Our Dan test occur twice a year(a seminar with the GM precedes the test)with all Dan levels testing during the same test. So yes, everyone who stays after the seminar and all the students can/do watch the test, as well as friends and family members. The GM likes to be the only one to promote a student to master level (4th Dan and up). Afterwards, we all go out to dinner together. I also know of another TSD association that tests their Master levels privately - not even the other masters usually watch. They are also not allowed to participate at their annual tournaments, which we can (I'm glad!). Master Mac Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:57:51 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: The Great Tang Soo Do Debate Continues... Why? > From: "CALLAHAN" > To: > Subject: Re: The Great Tang Soo Do Debate Continues... Why? > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:07:12 -0500 > > For give me if this seems out of line. But, I can't seem to figure out why > it is important, for all of us who subscribe to the Dojang Digest, to be > subjected to the personal confrontations between Mr. Hancock and D. > Segarra. This discussion between them does not appear to have originated > here, so why bring into "our house". > > I'm sorry but I feel since it is between them, it should remain between > them or, at least, in the forum form which it originated. > > Forgive me if I'm overlooking something that would require it to be > broadcast here, because I have chosen not to read the majority of the posts > on this particular discussion. > > Chris Callahan Well..Chris...allow me to explain why. Because 1. You aren't the only one you reads and post to this BB. 2. There are great number of TSD/SBD practitioners on this BB whom this may be of interest to or whom it may effect. 3. This issues being brought up are real issues in the history and future of the MDK. 4. Dialogue is the only hope for a one day unified MDK brotherhood. 5. There is nothing to be afraid of.....it is just words. 6. If you are not interest....use the scroll funtion. I have to scroll through tons of stuff on this BB that I am not interested in....so as moma says, "Don't feel pregnant." 7. This is still a FREE FORUM until our great leader, Dictator Ray, decides to emancipate us from our freedom of speech and starts shit canning our posts (wink wink Ray). 8. What really bothers you about me posting these? You said you haven't been reading them anyway.....so what is your problem? Is it with me? Why don't you just come out and say so? You can address me directly. You don't have to Run to the group for protections. I won't hurt you.........................much. (WAH! WAH! Ray..Mr. Hancock is pickin' on me again! He's not playing nice in the sand box!) :-) BUT...the most important reason why you have "to be subjected to the personal confrontations between Mr. Hancock and D. Segarra" is........... .........3:16.......... .......CAUSE 'STONE COLD' JOHN HANCOCK SAID SO. :-p JH ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:26:11 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #154 Greg Giddins wrote: << Tang Soo Do is all about forms, and most have the philiosophy "If you aren't doing your forms you aren't training" and most TKD students would scoff at this idea. >> Perhaps "most TKD students" could be replaced by "some" or "many." The school my son attends now is probably one of the most serious about Olympic-Style Sparring; but doing forms well is considered just as important as being able to spar well. If you read the Kukkiwon Taekwondo Text, I believe you'll find there is a great deal more emphasis on forms than on sparring. Sally CBAUGHN@aol.com ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:07:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #154: required sparring If a school requires a student to spar to attain rank, and the student is unwilling to meet this requirement, then it is up to the school whether or not to make a formal curriculum accomodation for the student in question and others with the same qualms. If the school does not believe such an accomodation is in the interests of the school (including the delegated interests of those students who do spar), then the student should not be promoted, and probably should be encouraged to look for a more compatible dojang. IOW, it's up to the instruction staff, but they should carefully think about the long-term consequences of such exceptions. Ideally, the compatibility of the school and the student in regard to this and similar requirements is examined _before_ the student is enrolled. The TSD school I attend requires sparring (nominally light-contact) for advancement, but real reluctance of a particular student to spar is generally taken into consideration during training. Such students may spar infrequently during class, but I have never seen sparring waived for an advancement test. >What do other people think about this statement? In it's original context > not just what was snipped ) the question was posed that if a school >requires a student to spar to attain a certain rank and they don't spar, >then they should be promoted. I'm curious of what you think. Tang Soo! Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@cyberenet.net ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:07:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #154: TSD history debate appropriate? I am getting a lot of value from the information contained in the reposts of the Hancock/Segarra exchanges. I think they are appropriate to the forum according to the published criteria. It would be preferable if Master Segarra would come directly to the forum with his side of the debate, but evidently that isn't going to happen. I seem to recall a great many debates about the history of various TKD and Hapkido/KSW organizations and founders on the digest (many of which I regarded as pedantic from my POV and elected to skip). The objection couldn't in part be because these are primarily TSD issues, could it;?) >Forgive me if I'm overlooking something that would require it to be >broadcast here, because I have chosen not to read the majority of the posts >on this particular discussion. Tang Soo! Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@cyberenet.net ------------------------------ From: "Michael Sarles" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:16:41 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Fear of Sparring Yikes!, that is a pretty tough requirement. What if every one you were sparring either in the school or in tourneys was really, REALLY good? It could take many, many years just to get your Dan. Our current organization is WTF based (we're the ITF side) and for any BB promotion - you don't have to spar to get your Dan. If you ~don't~ spar, you get a WTA Dan certificate. WTF rules sparring IS required to get your WTF certification though. Michael Sarles msarles@ior.com > I was in a school that did this for awhile. You not only had to spar, you > had to take a 1st place to get your 1st Dan. And not only in > sparring but in forms, too. !!! You stayed a Gym Blackbelt until you > accomplished these feats, then you received your Kukkiwon. > > That lasted a few years until the Master finally realized that > his standards for 1st Dan were just a weeeee bit too lofty. > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com > ------------------------------ From: "Michael Sarles" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:28:53 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #154 Again, confusion due to my statements being taken out of context. We're talking about sparring...let's talk about sparring -vs- forms ( and I am a forms advocate! I think it's one of the things that separates MA's from brawlers...) Sparring: A school has a requirement, to promote to a certain level, you have to spar. You don't spar, you don't promote. It's not up to the student to make up the rules. Forms: A school has a requirement, to promote to a certain level, you have to know the forms and execute them correctly. If you can't do this, you don't promote. What about the person that doesn't want to do forms? What if they think it's just 'kata-dancing' and it's for 'paper-tigers'. Should that person be able to say "No, I'm not going to do forms, I'm just going to do self-defense and sparring". Should the school just say, "Gee...well... I guess we'll have to change our requirements for this person. What do we know?" The gist? If you have a school that DOES NOT require students to spar to promote - fine. That's the schools rules. Just don't trash schools that have sparring requirements to promote. You don't like how a school is run, find one you DO like. Am I making sense? Michael Sarles msarles@ior.com > From: Greg Giddins > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:44:43 -0700 > Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #153 > > >snip> and someone doesn't spar - they should NOT be promoted. > >What does everyone else think of that comment? Anyone agree with that? > >Tang Soo! > > No. > > Tang Soo right back at ya. Sparring is an enjoyable exercise for most, but > should never, EVER be forced on an individual. There is a big dfference > between TKD and TSD in this matter. TKD is all about sparring, and so I > would imagine many TKD schools would have the philosophy "If you aren't > sparring, you aren't training" and most TSD students would retch at that > idea. Tang Soo Do is all about forms, and most have the > philiosophy "If you > aren't doing your forms you aren't training" and most TKD students would > scoff at this idea. ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:25:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #155 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.