From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #157 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 19 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 157 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #155 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #156 the_dojang: Re: IOC stuff the_dojang: ROK military the_dojang: RE: Katzenjammer Kids the_dojang: Foul Language the_dojang: Re: Sparring the_dojang: Okay children the_dojang: referee seminar the_dojang: 3:16 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #156 the_dojang: Re: Fiance visa the_dojang: Applauding Alain the_dojang: The Korean Way (was Fear of Sparring) the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #156 the_dojang: Rank / Testing the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #156 Re: the_dojang: ROK military BOUNCE the_dojang: Admin request (fwd) the_dojang: JH 3:16 ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:18:49 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #155 << The gist? If you have a school that DOES NOT require students to spar to promote - fine. That's the schools rules. Just don't trash schools that have sparring requirements to promote. You don't like how a school is run, find one you DO like. >> Ditto. It's just like a saying my father repeats to me on occasion when I get froggy... "The person in charge of the formation is never out of step." Don't agree with something??? Deal with it or leave. K. Jones addidastkd@aol.com "All warfare is based on deception." --Sun Tzu, "The Art of War" ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:22:49 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #156 In a message dated 3/18/99 7:09:48 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Ray "the new guy" Wagner >> welcome, other ray. :) melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:27:16 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: IOC stuff In a message dated 3/18/99 7:09:48 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Admittedly, the story doesn't have explicit details, but nowhere does it state or imply that Dr Kim was 'threatened' (either verbally or physically). Any one else care to comment? v/r Jay Huxman 1st Dan USATF (ITF)/Kukkiwon Colorado Springs jay.m.huxman@cpmx.saic.com >> welcome, jay. youre in a great location for taekwondoin, eh? wrt the IOC stuff, i simply dont know all the facts and details. it seems that there are agendas everywhere and i wonder about the sources for the story, frankly. i do agree with you though, that tenets are vital....especially for our leaders. melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: burdickd Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:49:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: ROK military First, congratulations Alain on your fiance getting her visa. A friend of mine is now trying to finalize permission for his wife to stay in the U.S. (she's been here 13 years as a student). I know the amount of crud they've had to go through, and I hope the rest of your paperwork goes a lot smoother. Next, I am getting something out of John Hancock's posts, and think they are appropriate, but of course would like to see less pugnacity in them. I really do think that courtesy and etiquette should be at the heart of the martial arts. That doesn't mean you have to love everybody John, but you also shouldn't accuse them of "running to Ray." Next, Ray wrote: "I think you have to be a 1st Dan in TKD, or some martial art, to even be Private in the ROK military. A huge number of the males in S.Korea are 1st Dan. But very few make it to 2nd." I'm not an expert on this Ray, but I don't think so. I know that one of my instructors had to enter Tiger Division because he was a black belt, and wasn't too happy about it because two of his friends had died in training. As someone mentioned earlier, military service is mandatory in S. Korea, and if you could get out of it by not getting a black belt, I'm sure a lot of people would. Lastly, there was a discussion about sons of martial artists being the experts on their fathers. I'd have to say that this is generally not the case. A friend of mine is the son of a triple 8th dan (judo, tkd, hapkido) who served in the ROK military. The father doesn't talk about his past, even to his son, and as a result his son didn't even know what ROK stood for (Republic of Korea folks). Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: "Longhorn, Andrew" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:18:00 +1100 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Katzenjammer Kids > I, personally, expect our TKD leaders and instructors to show > more constraint (until literally pushed into a self-defense response). > [Remember the Tenets of TKD?: Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverence, > Self-Control, and Indominitable Spirit] > Why not, the average person bends over backwards to be a "nice" person because either: 1) They think it will elevate them to greatness, to become a rich leader. 2) They will never be great or rich, so may as well be nice while we live around the hordes. 3) They like to feel thay are a leader. Why would anyone who is a leader have to pretend to be nice? The have money and fame, etc, what more is there? Have a look at the famous people? How many truly wealthy or influential leaders are virtuous? How many of the downtrodden or poor are truly strong and wonderful people? Hmmm Damn right I wish I was rich, I wouldn't squander it all on drugs and other garbage, I'd be able to spend more time training and being with my family. Andrew Longhorn ------------------------------ From: "CALLAHAN" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:48:12 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Foul Language Hey folks, I think all of this foul language that happens to sneak it's way into some peoples posts is totally uncalled for, disrespectful and childish. We should all be more considerate of others. Aren't we intelligent enough to make our points without that kind of talk? Plus, there are probably some kids around that read these posts. Do you want your kids reading language like this? I know... some of you are thinking "so what, the kids use that language everyday". I don't care, we don't need to contribute to it. __We should be setting the example.__ I feel this should also include these "censured" cuss word we see once in a while. Thanks for listening. Chris Callahan "Violence when there is an alternative, is immoral; Violence when there is no alternative, is survival" ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:28:52 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Sparring Tang Soo! Ya know, I had no idea that there are schools that have sparring as requirement for promotions at all levels. I am aware that in my Tang Soo Do school, we do not have that requirement. Sparring is required for BB tests, and I know that at that point I will have to sparr, unfortunatly. In my school, we drill with partners back and forth sparring, which teaches us control, distance and speed, as well as a host of other things. There is no contact and no gear for these drills. We use heavy bags for making contact and improving strength. I can see that there is a great divide in philosophy between Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do in this respect. But it brings up some interesting points. Lets say that at your school the reqirements for testing are forms, sparring and self defense up to your level. I come in and work my little tail off every class and love every minute of it, but I do not want to spar because I have a strong belief against violence. Joe Blow comes in a couple times a week and doesn't even break a sweat. All he wants is to be able to tell his friends that he knows karate. But he makes the half-assed effort to sparr. Is that a fair indication of who is worthy of obtaining their promotion? I thought that there was more to martial arts than just show up, pay, test, & promote. I think that there are sometimes valid reasons to make changes and exceptions because we are dealing with people and the human element. No, that doesn't mean that you have to lower your standards to make exceptions. But maybe for the student that has a physical problem which makes it difficult to do forms- you make the exception. The student that has a mental difficulty with sparring, maybe an exception can be made there too. If not an exception, then at least a modification. Tang Soo! Allison ------------------------------ From: AJ Woodburn Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:16:48 EST Subject: the_dojang: Okay children Hey, Ray, the kids are actin' up again why dont you guys just cool it? you're martial artists, you should be above arguing, Mr. Hancock is an outspoken individual, obviously there are gonna be some things that he says that no one else agrees with. Really guys, let's not turn every little skirmish into an Olympic pissing Contest, okay??? AJ ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:31:31 EST Subject: the_dojang: referee seminar For anyone interested in becoming a certified referee, the Oklahoma Taekwondo Union will be holding a certified referee seminar on April 24th in Tulsa OK at Rada's TKD 8755 S. Lewis Tulsa OK. We always hold informative seminars and this will be no different. If you are interested, just email me. ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:39:54 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: 3:16 From: Scott Apple Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:56:42 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: 3:16 JH, what is 3:16. I've seen it twice now in your posts. Thanks for the info. Scott...the 3:16 thing is a parody off of something said by a professional wrestler (you know how they like to get up on the mic and pump up the crowd by being austentatious) by the name of "STone Cold Steve Austin". You will see video tapes about him with 3:16 on the box in stores like Target, Wal-Mart...etc. And the reason the 3:16 was used by him was to infer what he had to say was Gospel. You know...Like a biblical verser...ergo...Austin 3:16.."cause Stone Cold said so!!" I just found this funny and it tickled me to the bone when it was explained to me. So...given the flack I have taken over my BB article...I just adopted the phrase as a way of putting a little humour back into some of the heated debates I've gotten drawn into. So...for all you out there that don't see the funny side to me doing that......TOUGH! WHY? 3:16...."cause Stone Cold John Hancock said so!!!" heheheheheheheheheh :-) ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:47:16 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #156 So, I'll come out and say so. I think you are a jerk, plain and simple. And I have never ran to others for protection. And before you you insinuate that you could hurt me, I'll let you know that you are not big enough or good enough, and you don't have enough friends. I will not waste everyone's time with another post like this, so don't even bother trying to keep it going, you are not worth it. But I sort of have a feeling I just said something many people are feeling. Alain Burrese I just love this guy. :-) I mean it! I really love him. JH ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:25:52 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Fiance visa Alain wrote: << Yi Saeng just called from Seoul and she has the visa. Now we can get a plane ticket for her to come over. She should be here in April. >> Wonderful!!! Congratulations to you both. I knew if you just hung in there things would work out. This is great! Sally Baughn CBAUGHN@aol.com p.s. Now are we all gonna be invited to the wedding? : ) ------------------------------ From: Scott Apple Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:05:48 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Applauding Alain Alain: Thank you for your last post. I agree with you. Demonstrating respect for other people is much more valuable than solely trying to prove you are right. It really is possible, though, to do both at the same time. ------------------------------ From: Dave Wilson Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:10:27 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: The Korean Way (was Fear of Sparring) > From: Ray Wagner > Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:26:19 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: RE: Fear of Sparring > > Is that necessarily a bad thing? If you're fighting "really, REALLY > good" folks in an effort to gain your BB then you're only getting > better. Personally, I see no problem with that at all. I'm trying to > make myself better. Period. If I'm still a red belt after 7 years, so > be it. But I'll be the best red belt you ever saw! Interesting paradigm there. My son is 13 and a probationary BB. That's exactly what I try to impress upon him. > I once worked with a fellow who was an officer in the Korean military. > He had to have a BB in TKD to receive his commision as an officer. He > said that they would test 4 people at a time. The last part was a > sparring "tournament" between the 4. Only the winner received his BB > and therefor his commision. That's interesting also. I wonder what other stories people have to share about Martial Arts and the Korean Military. I have a few second hand stories & observations. Our Master was in the Korean Special Forces. He trained others in TKD. He told us a story about stretching in the Korean SF's. He said that they would place the soldier with his back to the wall and assist him in obtaining the splits. The assistance sometimes resulted in much pain and even bruising of the inner calf but invariably led to a much much more flexible soldier. Not related but interesting, our Master has a picture of himself as a young man (he's 34-35 now) in the second founder of Hapkido's dojang. There was a picture of the guy on the wall. He told me he lived next to that dojang for 6 months to train in Hapkido because his TKD training was lacking in the fluid movements of Hapkido. I guess they emphasized a lot on learning to roll correctly. It must have paid off because when he demonstrates a Hapkido move or roll his technique is beautiful. One day he was demonstrating cartwheels then one handed cartwheels and then no handed cartwheels. No handed cartwheels, does anyone do those in relation to MA's? Back to the main theme, I was also a US Marine for 7 years and heard many stories of respect for the the discipline and hard core nature of the Republic of Korea Marines (ROK Marines). These stories coming from US Marines who had trained with them in Korea (not MA training but military exercises). One thing that stands out is that the NCO's used corporal punishment for infractions of military bearing such as being undisciplined in formation. The corporal punishment that I heard about, second hand, consisted of a whack on the back of the leg with a stout piece of timber. Makes me wonder if it was a Corporal administrating the punishment. > Personally, I'd rather be good than have any particular rank. I understand what you're saying and that's a very worthwhile goal. Myself, I enjoy the beauty of a move well executed. It's also very cool to have an occasional flash of inspiration that makes a technique work especially well for me. Dave... 1st Dan HKD TKD Dropout ------------------------------ From: Chuck Sears Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:39:59 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #156 > > From: "aparedes" > Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:43:57 -0800 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #155/ Do you let your students watch? > > I think this is a very good question. I'm too interested in what other > dojangs do. I did witness the ritual, test and promotion of my > Master/instructor. For the ritual, only from blue belt and up were allowed > to attend. For the actual test only black belts were allowed to watch and > assist. (specially the 2nd and 3rd degrees.) Some time later we had an > official promotion at a country club in L.A. We all wore suits and Tux's. > It was quite an experience. > > My question to you all is: Have you ever witnessed a ritual ceremony for > the promotion of 4th to Master 5th Dan? I participated in my Master's > ceremony. It consisted of him performing all his forms at 3 different > locations. He was told by GM to wear a white belt and be in the back 2 week > prior to the test and the night before he was not allowed to speak until the > ritual/ceremony was completed. I would really like to get some input on > this. Please look at the web page I put together describing this ceremony. > Look at THE MAKING OF A MASTER. AT > www.geocities.com/colosseum/arena/8129 > The ATA's promotional guidelines require anyone testing for the rank of 4th Degree or higher to test at World Championships before Grand Master Lee and all the seniors of the organization. When someone successfully tests for 6th Degree, they are eligible for Mastership, but the invitation to become a Master must come from GM Lee. He requires them to undergo special training for a year after they promote. At the World Championship following their testing, the new Masters are initiated at the Songahm Master's ceremony, and it is a beautiful thing to watch. Organizations define rituals like a Master's Ceremony because they give a sense of belonging, of becoming something more than you were. When you made 1st Degree, did your instructor just hand you a belt, or was there some sort of ceremony involved? Believe me, we all have the sense of accomplishment when we get promoted, but the ceremony is the cherry on top (and a lot of the whipped cream as well, IMHO). During the ceremony, we tell the stories that define us as a unique group. By including everyone in the ceremony, they learn the traditions and history of the ATA and it instills in them a renewed dedication. One day, I want to be up there, signing the scroll and receiving the Master's ring as well. ------------------------------ From: "Michael Sarles" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:25:44 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Rank / Testing [snip] > Michael Sarles said: (in regards to sparring requirements of winning a > tournament for advancement) > > Yikes!, that is a pretty tough requirement. What if every one you were > > sparring either in the school or in tourneys was really, REALLY good? It > > could take many, many years just to get your Dan. > > Is that necessarily a bad thing? If you're fighting "really, REALLY > good" folks in an effort to gain your BB then you're only getting > better. Personally, I see no problem with that at all. I'm trying to > make myself better. Period. If I'm still a red belt after 7 years, so > be it. But I'll be the best red belt you ever saw! [snip] > Ray "the new guy" Wagner > rwagner@primary.net Ray, I'm not disagreeing with you on this. I feel the same way about rank. But! Different people are going to have different strengths and weaknesses. I always kind of felt there should be a standard that must be reached by a person - not that they be judged on the abilities of their peers. Not all of us could probably ever take a gold in the Olympics, no matter how hard we tried/trained. As for rank, I've been a 1st Dan for about 6 years now and have been nominated for my 2nd dan testing 2 or 3 times. Unfortunately due to cash flow and lifestyle changes, I've never been able to take the test. I do get to spar those in my school that (at one time) were lower rank than me and have now passed me. They still ask me for advice - I still manage to beat them in tournaments (forms / sparring / breaking ) and I bow to them when entering and leaving the school. I don't mind - I came to a conclusion a long time ago - no matter what rank you're at, be the best at that rank that you can be. Michael Sarles msarles@ior.com P.S. I'm not tooting my own horn here - it's just a little ironic / amusing to me at times. Rank IS not everything! ------------------------------ From: "Michael Sarles" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:49:35 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #156 > Subject: the_dojang: Heal Bouncing ? > > I was in a wtf school for about a year and a half and now im in a itf > school.The wtf school had a gm from korea and he taught me that speed and > power comes from the hip twisting a little bit.Our forms were > done fast and EVERYONE who had on a green belt or higher had a snap in their > uniforms when punching or kicking.Now im in ITF and there is not too much > snap.Some of the bbs look down when doing forms instread of looking at the target.A really > irritating breathing thing is being done.And a up and down with > the heals with the blocks and punches are done too. This makes the forms slower > and unless the strike or block is being done either up or down it does not > seem to add any power or spped.I am set in the way i do forms and if we are supposedly > fighting "imaginary" opponents then im gonna fight em with as > much speed as i can.Can someone shed some light on this subject as i am very good > at forms and take a lot of pride in the way they look when i perform them. I've been doing ITF forms the whole time I've been in TKD. We were taught to focus on the target with your technique - good stances - proper weapons - deliver a technique and then turn and look for the next target and breathe with the delivery of the technique (nothing obnoxious though ;-) I like the ITF forms...I don't like the 'sine-wave' thing. I don't feel that it's realistic (IMHO). My school doesn't practice it. I'm glad. ALTHOUGH - to stay with what I've stated about sparring - if we had to do sine-wave - I would. As for the up and down and bouncing, I can see the theory behind power and moving up in a transition - and then dropping to increase power with the delivery of technique. But, I still think that too much bouncing around can cause you to miss openings if you're on the 'up-bounce' when the opening presents itself. I would rather that my forms flow smoothly with good power, focus and technique and my sparring to be light on my feet - more weight on my back foot leaving my lead leg available for quick attacks. I know this is a bad analogy for a MA list - but I don't see boxers doing an exagerated sine-wave. They use torque / hips / upper body and stay light on their feet. There is bouncing - but not during an engagement of attacks. Again, my yackity $0.02 worth... Michael Sarles msarles@ior.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:06:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: ROK military > and wasn't too happy about it because two of his friends had died in > training. As someone mentioned earlier, military service is mandatory > in S. Korea, and if you could get out of it by not getting a black belt, > I'm sure a lot of people would. Military service isn't mandatory, but some type of service is. In some cases they are assistant policemen. Those are the guys in the front during the riots... As I recall, they receive their TKD 1st Dan as they complete their military basic training. Yes? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:10:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Admin request (fwd) Forwarded message: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:17:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Admin request Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:08:27 -0600 From: Jerry Nowaczyk To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Re: ongoing diatribe > > For give me if this seems out of line. But, I can't seem to figure out why > > it is important, for all of us who subscribe to the Dojang Digest, to be > > subjected to the personal confrontations between Mr. Hancock and D. > > Segarra. This discussion between them does not appear to have originated > > here, so why bring into "our house". I'm in agreement! I for one would appreciate it if the self proclaimed "stone-cold" Mr. Hancock would post the URL or newsgroup or chatroom from which he has lifted the coversations so we can read them for ourselves.(if we want to) and drop the thread > > I'm sorry but I feel since it is between them, it should remain between > > them or, at least, in the forum form which it originated. > > > > Forgive me if I'm overlooking something that would require it to be > > broadcast here, because I have chosen not to read the majority of the posts > > on this particular discussion. > Well..Chris...allow me to explain why. Because 1. You aren't the only one you > reads and post to this BB. 2. There are great number of TSD/SBD practitioners > on this BB whom this may be of interest to or whom it may effect. 3. This > issues being brought up are real issues in the history and future of the MDK. > 4. Dialogue is the only hope for a one day unified MDK brotherhood. 5. There > is nothing to be afraid of.....it is just words. > 6. If you are not interest....use the scroll funtion. I have to scroll through > tons of stuff on this BB that I am not interested in....so as moma says, "Don't > feel pregnant." 7. This is still a FREE FORUM until our great leader, Dictator > Ray, decides to emancipate us from our freedom of speech and starts shit canning > our posts (wink wink Ray). 8. What really bothers you about me posting these? > You said you haven't been reading them anyway.....so what is your problem? Is > it with me? Why don't you just come out and say so? You can address me > directly. You don't have to Run to the group for protections. I won't hurt > you.........................much. (WAH! WAH! Ray..Mr. Hancock is pickin' on me > again! He's not playing nice in the sand box!) Flame bait like this _belongs_ in the trash bin....IMHO =Jerry= ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:24:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: JH 3:16 Ok. Time to knock off the flames into and out of Stone Cold JH. Back to KMA. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #157 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.