From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #167 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 24 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 167 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrums the_dojang: Re: Your Destiny the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrum the_dojang: RE: Tempers the_dojang: Videoplaybacks and TKD Tournaments the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #166 the_dojang: Re: thoughts on Karla's post the_dojang: Flags, Points, Scorecards, Other the_dojang: Re: Temper Tantrum the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool and Grabs the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #166 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #166 the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:00:50 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrums I was recently sparring a woman in class who didn't keep her hands up to protect her head.... None of the kicks were hard at all, certainly not hard enough to cause any injury, and all were to the side of the head gear, which is why I was caught totally off guard. ..... I feel a high rank, especially with her age should have had the composure and self control to deal with the situation rationally, not by threatening violence. Part of my responsibility to others is to help them train and to work on their problem areas with them. for her this means helping her keep her hands up, and I guess, bringing to her attention that sometimes a little more patience and less attitude is necessary. Does anyone else have any experience with this? Your in the arts ChrisM5689@aol.com Hi Chris I am a 3rd Gup in TSD. On of my biggest problems in sparring is that I do not always block techniques that come to my head or keep my hands up. Pretty much like that woman you were sparring. There is a black belt (1st degree I think, not that it matters) who I love to spar against because he does exactly the same thing to me that you do to her! He kicks me in the head. And if I drop my hands again he kicks me in the head again! And again and again and again. It has helped me tremendously and I really appreciate it. I never worry about getting hurt though because he does have excellent control... though accidents will happen (like once he gave me a bloody nose, but that was because I sort of charged in on it and DIDN'T BLOCK.... so it was partially, well actually mostly, my fault) And also when you join a martial art you cannot expect never to be hurt. We are all learning self control etc.... As long as a person isn't intentionally going after someone there is no problem. So what I say is thank you. It is people like you who really help. You are doing the right thing (at least imo) I am also very surprized at the brown belts attitude (esp. at 40) doesn't look as though she's learnt very much from her years as a marital arts student (I don't want to use the term martial artists because of her attitude. I don't think she deserves the title!) Also she should be setting the example for the younger belts! anyway.... Tang Soo Jols ------------------------------ From: Ray Wagner Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:53:13 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Your Destiny > Paul Rogers wrote: > I think I first got turned on to martial arts via the Kung Fu TV series. I was 12 > or 13 at the time, and I actually liked the philosophy as much as the moves. I > didn't do anything about it, though, until I was about 21, when I enrolled in a > Shaolin-Do school under grand naster Sin The in Lexington, KY (that's right, JH, > another hillbilly on the net ;?) ). I dropped out after a year to become a > programmer-type, and didn't re-up to martial arts until '95, when I joined a TKD > school in S. Florida with my wife and child. I took up TKD because of the > location of the school and (primarily) because we could all train together. Whoa! Parallel universe and all that... I got started watching Kung Fu too. I had aspirations, but lived in the middle of nowhere until I got to college. There I started doing Shaolin-Do under a 2nd generation Sin The' instructor. After a couple of years he moved away (got a better job in Minneapolis) and I was out for a while. Then I met up with one of my biking buddies coming home from the gym and he told me he taught TKD. My wife and I started with him up and practiced together. Weird, huh? Ray "Rod Serling poster child" Wagner ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:17:26 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrum ChrisM5689@aol.com, I have run into many people with an attitude problem at one time or another, even myself at times in the beginning. ;-) Personally, I have found that sometimes one has to resort to equal or slightly greater force to stop a threat. Or one may be able to redirect her over aggressive style so she falls all over herself. However, maybe the Karate class has a different style of sparring which does not involve extensive kicking to the head as other styles such as TKD. If one can use only the techniques and style of sparring that the difficult sparring partner is using it may go a long way to demonstrating the proper patience and control. If you can beat her at her own game with her own rules she may not have a reason to lash out anymore. Although, some people never learn. - --- Scott scink@who.net From: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:52:08 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrum I was recently sparring a woman in class who didn't keep her hands up to protect her head. After landing about half a dozen right leg roundhouses in a four minute period she grabbed me by my dobok, pointed a finger in my face and told me that if I kicked her in the head one more time she was going to "punch me in the face". None of the kicks were hard at all, certainly not hard and less attitude is necessary. Does anyone else have any experience with this? Would her attacking me with the intent to physically injure me (which her voie told me was the case) be cause for me to respond with a less-than gentle techniqe to end the threat? Your in the arts ChrisM5689@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Sarles" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:28:00 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Tempers > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrum > > I was recently sparring a woman in class who didn't keep > her hands up to protect her head. After landing about half a dozen right leg > roundhouses in a four minute period she grabbed me by my dobok, pointed a finger > in my face and told me that if I kicked her in the head one more time she was > going to "punch me in the face". None of the kicks were hard at all, certainly not hard > enough to cause any injury, and all were to the side of the head > gear, which is why I was caught totally off guard. The woman is a brown belt, and > probably in her fourties, and I am an 18 year old blue belt (In > karate where this transpired, and a 1st dan in Taekwondo) and I feel a high rank, > especially with her age should have had the composure and self > control to deal with the situation rationally, not by threatening violence. She > also refused to move after me anymore, or take any initiative. She kept > taunting me "come on, I'm not going to chase you, come on" The woman, (I learned afterward) > tends to "take everything very seriously." If this is so, why [snip] I've been in this instance with two people before...a guy and a girl... The girl was a 1st D BB when I was a green/blue stripe and she was one of these people that showed up for class every once in a while to wear her belt (I think...Lord knows her skill wasn't there anymore...). After sparring a while, she told me to quit throwing kicks to her head (since she obviously wasn't blocking them.). I got a little upset, but kept it to myself...bowed to her...turned around and kneeled on the floor. When the instructor came over I told him what had transpired, she agreed and then I stated that instead of not trying my best...I would just wait until that sparring session was over and I moved to the next partner. The next time it happened, I thought "Screw it, I'm not going to pacify this guy" - so after he blew off at me, we continued sparring, I continued to either tag him or get shots in that he wasn't stopping. He got mad - I kept my mouth shut and when sparring was over, I bowed to him, shook his hand, said "Thank you" and moved to the next partner. I never said anything about it, until my instructor asked me what happened. I told him...the guy eventually quit. I'm not going to go into my TKD class (something I like to do) and let some other jerk rob me of my peace and what I go there for. Handle how you see fit, but I suggest you keep your cool, be more mature than the others and be the better 'man'. Michael Sarles msarles@ior.com P.S. If this person stays in your sparring group - the tension or animosity should make for more realistic sparring ;-) ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:40:24 PST Subject: the_dojang: Videoplaybacks and TKD Tournaments What role do you see video playbacks playing in TKD tournaments especially now with competition getting heavier and the Olympics taking shape? Do you think they should be used or not to decide matches or protests? I was just thinking about the on again off again video debate in football and wondering what everyone else thought about tournaments. I see another issue which contributes to uncertainty and misunderstandings in matches is getting used to electronic scoring and the fact that not everybody is consistent in the type of scoring process they use. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Sarles" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:40:18 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #166 [snip] > that start by a wrist seize. It seems that 75% of all the techniques start > with some sort of wrist seizure. I am not saying the techniques are bad, > once it is applied. I also believe that the same techniques can be used > against most hand strikes. But if the student only practices the > techniques > starting from a wrist seize what good is it when the attacker throws a > punch, or a multiple series of attacks. > > I wanted to know, if the Kuk Sool, Hakido and similar dojangs, always > teach and practice their techniques the same way. Ex: Sohn Mok Soo #? 1) > Start from horse stance, 2) opponent grabs wrist, 3), apply the techniques > OR do they learn to block the strike (maybe trap it), hit the > opponent with > a counter strike, and then apply a KukSool Hapkido technique. > > Chris Not trying to be a fuddy-duddy here, but I am REALLY curious about: Has anyone ever tried this technique against some one that wasn't going to let you do it and was possibly stronger than you? I say this because our school used to have a WHOLE BUNCH of knife self-defense techniques. They looked good. But most of the time if I applied some strength and tension and reacted like I would when fighting (I don't know anyone that just throws a technique and then waits while you do your self-defense business in a fight...) and quickly jerked away - they couldn't do anything. So then my instructor and I (on the side) decided to put them to the test. We got out a rubber knife and started sparring - one person with the knife - one without. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OUR KNIFE SELF-DEFENSE TECHNIQUES WERE CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was able to successfully use one of them - and then didn't know what the hell to do after I finally popped the knife out of his hand - it kind of shocked me that it worked since when I had tried to use a lot of the others, I usually wound up getting the knife stuck in my gut, neck, arm, thigh, etc. We actually got to the point where we started doing what you stated in the latter part of your post... 1. Block it and strike at the same time - then counter hard. OR 2. We use an aikido type wrist grab where you either bend their wrist hard towards their inner arm until they go down OR grab the wrist, pull them towards you (to get them moving) and then flip the wrist back. When the latter is even applied gently, you really feel like the person could break your wrist while you're flipping around in the air. Michael Sarles msarles@ior.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:08:03 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: thoughts on Karla's post << What if you don't know that my son has a kidney problem and I don't tell you and he gets hurt? Who is at fault, me for not telling or you for not asking? Remember, logic does not always prevail when it comes to legalities. >> Logic? What's THAT? You raise an interesting point. Who out there knows the answer? <> Isn't there some *rule* [written or otherwise] that would suggest this as a common practice? You know, talking master to master before taking on someone's former student?? ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:11:56 PST Subject: the_dojang: Flags, Points, Scorecards, Other After I finished the last post about videoplaybacks I started thinking about all of the different ways of documenting points in tournaments. I'm sure I've missed a few. What is your preference at a tournament. Do you favor one over the other and for what reasons? Do you think it will ever be the same at local, state, nationals? If not what problems do you see with having the older ways done at the local levels and then having students go to the nationals and have electronic scoring; or isn't this an issue at all? Would love to hear from all styles of m.a. on this one. As always, thanks. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com We can't run from who we are, Our destiny chooses us. Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: jberwin@sc45.rsc.raytheon.com (John Brett Erwin 972-952-3738 ERWN) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:26:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Temper Tantrum > I was recently sparring a woman in class who didn't keep >her hands up to protect her head. After landing about half a dozen >right leg roundhouses in a four minute period she grabbed me by my >dobok, pointed a finger in my face and told me that if I kicked her >in the head one more time she was going to "punch me in the face". There are three factors contributing to this problem: 1) The contact itself: You say that you didn't kick her that hard, and it was to the side of her headgear. Is there a chance that "not hard to you" may still be too hard to her. Remember that differences in size, age, and sex may play a factor in what she and you consider "too hard." With your experience (blue-karate + black-TKD), I tend to beleive you. But perhaps she is exceptionally frail? Obviously, there's no intent for hard contact on your part, so perhaps there was just a lack of understanding of what acceptable contact is for her. 2) Embarrassment: No one likes to be kicked in the head, much less a dozen times or more in a couple of minutes. This is especially true with *some* older students who are sparring with young, "snot-nosed-punk-hotshots" who are exceptionally gifted in skill compared to them. I'm sure you're not a "snot-nosed-punk", but I've seen many teenagers exploit older students by having a virtual target practice session (with hard contact or not). This can be very humiliating and frustrating for the older student. 3) Bad attitude: This may stem from #2. It sounds like she really went over the edge in her reaction. Have there been any other instances in class (with or without you) which have caused her to "lose it?" This may be why she's in martial arts in the first place: self-control of her temper. Maybe she just hasn't gotten it yet. The best solution is simply to make friends with her. Apologize for either hitting her too hard and/or embarrassing her for kicking her so much in the head. Let her know that you will make an effort to adapt your sparring to her level (without taking it too easy! :) and that at the first sign of a loss of control, you'd appreciate it if she simply said to bring it down a notch. The next time you spar her, tell that you want to work on something particular (like defense against punching for example). And you would appreciate it if she would do a lot more punches than normal against you. Next time, ask her if you can return the favor by doing something special to help her. After a couple of these I think a trust will develop which, hopefully, can lead to a friendship. If your co-students in the dojo/dojang aren't your friends, then training can be miserable. Best of luck, Brett Erwin Allen, TX jberwin@raytheon.com ------------------------------ From: Gary Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:51:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool and Grabs Hi there- I'm Gary Kloster, long time lurker, first time writer. > From: "Christian Fortin" > Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:58:37 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: techniques (snip) > > I wanted to know, if the Kuk Sool, Hakido and similar dojangs, always > teach and practice their techniques the same way. Ex: Sohn Mok Soo #? 1) > Start from horse stance, 2) opponent grabs wrist, 3), apply the techniques > OR do they learn to block the strike (maybe trap it), hit the opponent with > a counter strike, and then apply a KukSool Hapkido technique. > > Chris I have been in the University of Illinois Kuk Sool club for a little over four years now. Recently promoted to first degree black belt. When we do techniques, some sets like the wrist grabs in Sohn Mok Soo are done from a static position. Other sets, starting at blue belt, are done in response to a punch. At black belt you start learning to do locks and throws off of an opponents kick. When all of these techniques are first taught, the attack is simple. Your partner grabs your wrist and waits till you do the technique, or does a slow straight punch at your head. This lets you work on remembering the technique and practice its form. Once the person has the basics of the technique down, then we start making them more complicated- what if they grab you and start pulling, or start punching with the other hand, or throw a roundhouse punch instead of a straight punch, etc. So, yeah we do techniques in responses to grabs and strikes. We also try to work on being able to do the technique under stress conditions as opposed to the ideal conditions that we first start with. Gary Kuk Sool Won at UIUC ------------------------------ From: Chuck Sears Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:01:22 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #166 > From: > Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:52:08 EST > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrum > > I was recently sparring a woman in class who didn't keep her hands up to > protect her head. After landing about half a dozen right leg roundhouses in a > four minute period she grabbed me by my dobok, pointed a finger in my face and > told me that if I kicked her in the head one more time she was going to "punch > me in the face". ...snip... Your post was right on target. If she chooses to not guard her head, it's her problem when she gets kicked. Her attitude is also her problem. Bring this to your instructor's attention immediately. And the next time you spar her, kick her in the head and watch out for a forceful retaliation. Do what you need to do to protect yourself from it, just as if you were being attacked on the street. Let me repeat myself - discuss this with your instructor as soon as you can. ------------------------------ From: AJ Woodburn Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:41:00 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #166 Chris wrote: Would her attacking me with the intent to physically injure me (which her voie told me was the case) be cause for me to respond with a less-than gentle techniqe to end the threat? Your in the arts This seems very suprising to me, but I've seen it ONCE before, when I was a white belt EIGHT years ago, I wittnessed two orange belt boys, slightly older than me, get into a fist fight because one of them got frustrated. The instructor leading class first had them do more pushups than I could count, and then preceeded to have ME, a white belt, teach them their next form, boy did that take a while. there is only one way to deal with hot heads, let them blow their gas. words arent going to hurt you and if she threatened you physically, you definately have to take it up with your Master Instructor. My suggestion is to avoid sparring with her and find someone who is serious about learning and not a loose cannon. AJ Woodburn THE DRAGON Dragon102@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:30:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #167 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.