From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #168 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 24 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 168 In this issue: the_dojang: Hapkido techniques the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrum the_dojang: Logic and such the_dojang: Re: Speeding Up Competitions the_dojang: How do you restart training? the_dojang: Re: MA as therapy etc/ Jamaica the_dojang: Re: sparring the_dojang: Re: learning the rising block the hard way the_dojang: Re: PS the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:45:11 EST Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido techniques In a message dated 99-03-24 15:31:12 EST, you write: << OR do they learn to block the strike (maybe trap it), hit the opponent with a counter strike, and then apply a KukSool Hapkido technique. >> In the Korea Hapkido Federation curriculum you learn basic joint locks from the wrist grab as a white belt. You do not learn any other left hand grab right wrist techniques until dan level. But in the other gup levels, the original joint locks show back up with techniques involving different kinds of grabs, you initiating it first, block a punch and then do the technique, etc. And we sparred where we would try and get these techniques on each other as well. (much harder then) In my video that will come out later this year, I did not teach the techniques this way, since the intention was not to show what you had to know for belt promotions, but to put techniques together that a person could use. So I teach in the video the basic wrist grab form, because that is probably the easiest way to get the technique down, but then I go into the variations, as well as talk about the Hapkido Hoshinsul techniques that involve strikiing, etc. You may have to hit the guy a couple times before you can put on a joint lock. I think it is a big difference in learning straight hapkido six days a week, and learning a little hapkido with your TKD. But be assured, HKD is not just techniques from a wrist grab. (BTW, I don't think it is bad that TKD people supplement their training with HKD. I think it is good, that's one place my video can help, and that's why I teach HKD to the TKD school here on campus every week.) Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: Danny Abramovitch Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:54:11 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrum A long time ago, when I had some TKD skill, people used to kick to my head a fair bit. (Being vertically challenged, it was an easy target.) I should say that I think there is a lot to people learning how to train while keeping the safety of their partner in mind, be it in sparring or grappling. I recall taking a back kick to the knee from a gonzo type character that really ticked me off. (I was lucky to walk away from it. Within the same year, the person broke a bone in my hand as I was holding a board for them on their 1st Dan test.) Someone whipping their elbows around in sparring is another p***er offer. However, if someone gets tagged by a clean, fair, controlled kick that they should know to block, then that's their problem. At one point, when I was a green belt, there was a blue belt who kept throwing uncontrolled axe kicks (leading with the heal) to my head. He would make contact and then apologize that he had no control of that kick and *then* continue throwing it. Eventually, I took the attitude of really upping my intensity whenever he threw one of these kicks. At some point *he* complained and I told him something to the effect of, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander". He complained that it was okay for him because he "couldn't control the kick". My response there was simply "If you can't control it, don't throw it." When I was a 1st Dan, there was a high school kid with a red belt and some nice kicks. He caught me once with some sort of spinning back kick (forehead, temple, somehow I forget), so I upped my intensity and had him backing up and running the rest of the time. When that set was over, he turned to one of the other first dans with a weird look and Mike replied (laughing), "Just don't kick him in the head." (Make Mongo mad.) Now, there were lots of folks there that could really wipe me out, but were kind enough not to. They were fighting with control and I tried (probably unsuccessfully to emulate them). I always figured, though, that when someone threw a head kick, they were inviting a renewed intensity on my part. As long as I fought fairly and didn't try to actually hurt them, that intensity seemed fine in my eyes. For myself, I always felt it was my own responsibility to protect my head and my own responsibility to make it not worth my opponent's while to go there. I think it might have been different if you were aiming side kicks at her face, but it doesn't sound like you were. I guess what I'm saying is that if that woman had a problem with the head kicks, she should have flattened you in sparring (using approved techniques :-) ) and been done with it. - -- Danny ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:14:24 EST Subject: the_dojang: Logic and such Someone asked: > Isn't there some *rule* [written or otherwise] that would suggest this as a > common practice? You know, talking master to master before taking on > someone's former student?? You would think that is the case; however, I know that very rarely does this happen. There are some that think me quite unusual for suggesting they speak to a former teacher. I recently spoke with a friend about possibly studying with him for a while. I told him that I wanted to make sure it was OK with him before approaching our Master to see if he had a problem with it. He told me that he was glad I would do that since he's been caught in the middle a few too many times on that score. He, like me, assumes that a student would tell their Master that they are leaving or supplementing their study and why. It seems respectful as well as logical. But hey...like I said logic does not always prevail. ------------------------------ From: Stan Lim Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:15:25 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Speeding Up Competitions Jamaica posed: >I've been to many tournaments that when the day is running long and late >the tournament director will go from ring to ring and tell the center >ref and the time keeper to "shorten" up the matches. So if they are >supposed to be 3 minute matches they are now 2 min or less. > >I personally feel it's a backwards way of making a tournament efficient, >on the otherhand when a tournament is running till 10 or 11 or later at >night I can see them doing it. But I truly don't feel it's fair to the >competitors. Other thoughts? This is VERY unfair, IMHO. At the last tournement I was at last October, one of the BBs in my school had to wait until 8:30 pm before her first fight. Fights were supposed to be 2 rounds of 2 minutes, with 1 minute breaks. During the first round, the score was even, but we noticed that the break was called very fast. We thought that maybe we were all excited and didn't see the time go by. When the timekeeper called for the start of the 2nd round after what was pretty obviously not the 1 minute standard break, I whipped out my stopwatch and timed the 2nd round. 45 seconds! That was all my friend had on the mat. The worst part is that the competitors were not told that the time had been shortened, so when she lost a point to a kick to her chest, she hopped around, taking her time to look for her opening to strike back. Unfortunately, the match was ended before she had a chance to score a point back. Needless to say, my friend was extremely disappointed and angry. She paid the full tournament fee like everyone else, and was entitled to a fair fight. The fact that almost all tournaments run over time is a sad testament that as martial artists, our organizational skills and time management abilities suck. Tournament organizers need to be more realistic in their time estimates, and either get bigger facilities to host more matches simultaneously, or cut down on the number of competitors and events. Stan Lim 3rd Kup, TKD San Jose, CA ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:19:27 EST Subject: the_dojang: How do you restart training? Hey, Jamacia can't be the only one to ask questions, right? : ) I had dinner with some people this weekend and, at one point, we began discussing martial arts. (Miles was telling them about the date where he watched me break wood at a tournament.) The woman we were with then told us that her 13 year old daughter had studied Kung Fu for a couple of years and was doing well but then, as happens with kids, found some other interests and dropped her training. She mentioned that her daughter would like to go back but is a little embarassed about being out for so long. Also, the kids she used to train with have moved on and ones behind her are probably ahead of where she would be. She was wondering how she can help her daughter return to the same school but save face enough so that she won't drop it again. Thirteen is a tough age. Peers mean so much to kids, I can understand her fear/embarassment. I said I would ask the group what they thought. Has anyone either lived this or dealt with this? (Both as an instructor and student.) If so, what suggestions would you make to encourage this young woman? Tang Soo! Karla ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:05:14 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: MA as therapy etc/ Jamaica Jamaica, As usual, a very good topic. I have a few comments to add which are not at all meant to refute your position but to add some info. I work in the juvenile justice system and have more than a little familiarity with social services, school social workers, etc., and not least of all "special needs" kids. In fact, I hate that label because each and every one of us has special needs, and I think that it becomes more an excuse than pointer to any real help, but I digress. My point is that I feel that these labeled individuals ahve every bit as much right to take MA as anyone else, provided that they abide by whatever rules are set out by the instructor. >>While that is no surprise to me it is disturbing that while martial arts instructors struggle to get and maintain credibility for their teachings that behind the scenes we are being used as professional providers and educators to help challenged children and adults. Yet on the surface we are not given that acknowledgment in a professional manner. Thank you's are nice but so is some type of monetary compensation.>> Do you feel that if a social worker refers a family with no income and food to a grocery store they are using the grocer as a professional provider without acknowledgement? You mention much about how "these people have lots of grants to work with". In a sense that is true, but mostly it is in a constant state of flux and overall, at least in the system I work in, there has been a huge overall cut in available funds, services, programs, ideas, and energy. As to monetary compensation, I would assume that the people "referred" to MA classes are also paying for the instruction, or at least someone is paying the bill. >>Schools in particular are now hiring counselors, social workers and psychologists at an alarming rate because many states provide large money paybacks or grants back to the state for employing these individuals. They also get additional funding for Special Needs teachers and indeed they should. There is a lot of work involved.And these individuals also have large grants to work with and many parents (not all) receive additional funds for dignosed children.>> Schools are also hiring all these people because they are desparately needed in many areas. Parents do receive funds for diagnosed children, and often these funds are misused. I could tell alarming stories but this is not the place for it. However, these funds are SUPPOSED to be for getting what the kid needs. If taking MA will be good for the kid, the kid wants to do it, the parent is willing, no reason not to use those funds to pay for MA training. Or music training or a special camp or wahtever. Personally, I tihnk part of the explosion in diagnoses of "learning disabiltiies" and "emotional "disturbance" in schools is due to the huge and unacceptable failure of public school to adhere to minimal academic and behavioral standards for these last many years. If you let a child go to school through 6th grade and keep passing them regardless of their level of achievement, don't get surprised when they end up in high school illiterate and unable to follow directions. Again, I digress and better shut my mouth before I get off on a tangent without explaining myself completely and cause misunderstandings. To get back to your topic, yes these individuals will probably be challenging to an MA instructor. But again, if they are willing to put forth the effort and comply with the rules, they ahve every right to bet here and it might well be the best thing that ever happened to them. If we are talking about a regular martial arts school, though, I don't see why the instructor should be pulled into "the system" for monetary or any other form of compensation. These students often most are in need of something that is NOT part of the system, is NOT run by social workers, and is NOT full of therapeutic jargon etc. >>I think if people (young and old) are being referred to martial arts schools than the clinical providers or family members have a responsibility to tell us. It takes hours and hours and sometimes years for clinical providers to diagnose certain disorders and yet martial arts instructors are expected to work miracles without having a full comprehension of the students background. The student could even not just be hyperactive but could be prone to bouts of anger and hostility released in a physical way toward other students in class. This of course would increase the liability. It also would cause unncessary confusion and bad misunderstandings between the student, parent and other classmates. And what if we can't help the child or the counselor perceives our actions as being detrimental in some way. Then what?>> Do you also believe insurance companies should be able to use genetic testing to deny coverage to people who might get cancer? Again, not to be offensive but I have the impression you are going down that particular slippery slope. If a child who is simply uncoordinated has a gym teacher who recommends MA, then do you think this falls under your discussion too? Or are you only talking about mental health issues? Again, let me stress that the instructor has EVERY RIGHT to expect people to conform to their rules. If someone is unwilling or unable to do so and presents a risk to the other studcents, by all means expel them from the school. Perhaps there IS a place for instructors to "specialize" in working with very difficult cases, but why should all students be treated in this way? >>Having been referred to martial arts - some (certainly not all) parents might feel that it is the martial arts responsibility to provide a cure and will be the first to criticize if we are not able to come through with quick results.>> And they will be wrong, plain and simple. But you are correct that often the "clients" expect magic cures, and when they don't get them, they blame everyone else. Goes with the territory. >>I also think that if they are being referred to us than we should also be awarded some monetary compensation and training so that we can really help these children. Unfortunately our society uses money as a means of professional recognition. >> Perhaps , as I said, there is a place for specialized instrcutors. Perhaps someone can get this additional training and apply to be a provider for Title 19 or something like that. But the trend in social/mental health services and society in general is in the opposite direction. Call it mainstreaming if you will. But it is the way to go. There is much data that I cannot quote here (and if someone is po'd that I don't, sorry but I'm about to be out of town for 4 days and simply don't have time to look it up, too busy working with these challenging kids), that institutional models do not work. Centralized systems do not wokr. The currently community based services may not work either, but it must be tried. And, again, every individual has a right to pursue their interests until it impacts the rights of others. >>I think too frequently the kindness and dedication of the martial arts instructor is exploited. They know most martial arts instructors will go out of their way to help make it work for all students (without exception) even without the necessary tools and education and obviously the vast majority are really doing an excellent job or they wouldn't increase the number of referrals.>> So are many teachers, clergy, coaches and grandmas. But like you say, the vast majority apparently are doing an excellent job. Why fix what ain't broke? >>But this number is increasing and so is the responsibility that goes with it.>> Any MA instructor has a tremendous responsibility to all their students. This is no different. >>I just throw this out for thought and certainly defer to expert parents, educators, and instructors on this list for further thought. I know there are no easy answers and probably a zillion other issues that need to be addressed that I don't know about; but I needed to throw this out on the table anyway.>> And I just had to throw in my 2 cents. Hope you are not offended, but this is something I can't not talk about. More than willing to discuss this further after next week. I'm going on a mini vacation to visit family and participate in a tournament in Columbus, OH - if anyone's going to be there, send me mail if you are interested in meeting. Thanks for listening. Thank you. Jamaica Thank you too :) Sandy tokay@netwurx.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:26:39 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: sparring > same thing to me that you do to her! He kicks me in the head. And if I drop > my hands again he kicks me in the head again! And again and again and again. > and then after he kicks me again I can jfisom nfjkslf fjdks kdkd!!! Oh, sorry-sometimes I can't think straight after I spar that guy! I hate head kicks. Tang Soo! Willy ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:19:35 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: learning the rising block the hard way >same thing to me that you do to her! He kicks me in the head. And if I drop >my hands again he kicks me in the head again! And again and again and again. >It has helped me tremendously and I really appreciate it. I never worry about >getting hurt though because he does have excellent control... though Heh. I too have an instructor who helps me in this way. Makes you tihnk of saying "thank you, sir, may I have another" :) ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:15:46 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: PS Mark wrote: >> Instead of being sucked into this world of professional providers, I would propose that the martial arts are best served by remaining outside this professional circle. I do believe the martial arts can be helpful for many challenged individuals, but it is because we do not acknowledge or cater to their particular challenges that we have been found successful. >> Exactly. That is much whwat I meant to say in my post. Re the horror stories Kim related: None of this is good. I agree this is a challenge to the instructor. And when you are dealing with issues about children an additional dimension comes in that the parents are in control of a lot of the situation (choosing a program, paying the bill, reinforcing it at home) but the kid is the one who is receiving the instruction, and this breaks down the cause and effect thing. If an adult is paying their hard eanred money to study MA they probably will work hard at it or quit if they choose not to do it or don't like it. A kid is at the mercy of everyone else's decisions. This does complicate things. But we should not give up. Sandy tokay@netwurx.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:53:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #168 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.