From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #170 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thurs, 25 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 170 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #169 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #169 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #169 the_dojang: Board Holders the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #169 the_dojang: Board Holder the_dojang: What would you say...? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #169 the_dojang: Re: Videoplaybacks and TKD Tournaments the_dojang: Creative Dicipline/ Dawne the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrum Re: the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrum the_dojang: Losing the spirit. the_dojang: Silent Injuries the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang:Searching for Board holder gizmo... the_dojang: RE: Temper tantrum or disrespected? the_dojang: Illinois the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Sarles" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:57:46 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #169 > From: Ray Wagner > Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:19:13 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrum [snip] > Personally, I think it's a VERY good thing to spar people who don't > train like you do. Currently I'm training at a TKD school that's also > affiliated with a karate school. I really enjoy going to the karate > school for "fight night" and sparring with people who train in kenpo and > shurite karate. I get punched in the head more than I like, but I'm > learning from it. They do a lot of front kick lead with 3+ followup > punches and such. I can generally keep them from really connecting but > they're still getting through my defense better than I like. Ergo > getting hit in the head is a good thing. > Not telling you what to do here...but how much of a weapon do you make your lead leg? I found I had the same problem when I was sparring other stylists (wife who is Goju-Ryu - brother who is Ed Parker Kenpo - friend who is Wing-Chun...). I started REALLY working on my hands (heavy bag - shadow boxing - double end bag with small weights in my hands) AND I also started working on sparring with quite a bit of weight on my back leg. While I've had some people say that you are now off balance and you have to adjust your weight to be able to use your hands effectively, I have found that: * If I'm in close enough to be to the point of using hands, I've already adjusted and am now using that weight transfer to drive my punches in. * With maybe 10-20% of my weight on my lead leg I didn't get it swept - nothing to sweep. * With maybe 10-20% of my weight on my lead leg - it made my lead leg attacks very quick. * I started working a lot on good, hard driving lead leg techniques. Worked for me. Now I set EVERYTHING up with letting them know that I LIKE to use my lead leg for good, solid shots. Also helps set hand or spinning techniques. Just a thought...not that I really know anything at all... Michael Sarles msarles@ior.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Sarles" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:04:34 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #169 Forrest, I don't think anyone is going to flame you for your post. I also didn't really catch any 'vehement' responses. I think people were discussing their views on being attacked by someone verbally and very immaturely about getting hit in the head. Now if the woman would have voiced her concern in a polite manner - I don't think there would be a problem. I think respect is a *key* component in MA training. I've had other people that I've sparred that were hurt, shy, to a point in their life where they lost a little 'hitch-in-their-get-up' - these concerns only need to be made vocal without animosity - and I don't think there would be a problem. Nice post. Michael Sarles msarles@ior.com > From: "Forrest S. Clark" > Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:34:17 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Brett Erwin on Re: Temper Tantrum > > Thanks, Brett, for a well thought-out response to the post on "Temper > Tantrum." The balance and understanding in your statement have brought me > out of my long-lasting lurkerhood to voice my appreciation. And > as soon as > I get flamed by those whose responses with which I disagree, I'll probably > return to that lurking . > > I have been surprised by the vehement response of others (but I shouldn't > have been given my own experience). I'm 51, Brown belt ITF; Red-black, > WTF. My reaction times are slower than almost all of the younger people I > have to train with. And they can tag me in the head whether I have my > hands up or not. Maybe that means I'm not as good as they are. > And that's > right, I'm not! But I'm doing the best I can. So when we are sparring > what is the joy in trying to kill me by repeatedly kicking me in the head > if I can't stop them? ------------------------------ From: Ray Wagner Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:58:22 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #169 Ken Legendre says: > Ray Wagner > > I think that you and I must belong to the same school or something. The > things that you described have all been done to me. > > Thanks > Ken Legendre > 2nd Dan TKD > kwlegen@ilstu.edu Well, if that ilstu is Illinois State then it wasn't far off. All those things happened to me at U of Illinois. :) And to our newly de-lurked Kook Sul Won person at UIUC..."Hail to the orange, hail to the blue..." :) I was in Sung Lee TKD and we used to have "fight night" in the combat room while you guys were Kook Sul-ing. Nice to (virtually) meet you! Ray "the Illini" Wagner ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:24:32 EST Subject: the_dojang: Board Holders To protect your fingers holding boards you might want to try the Shur-Guard Hand Shields. I've never tried them, but they look like they'd do the job. Look in Taekwondo Times and you'll see their ad. Dave ------------------------------ From: Ray Wagner Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:13:34 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #169 "Forrest S. Clark" wrote: > I have been surprised by the vehement response of others (but I shouldn't > have been given my own experience). I'm 51, Brown belt ITF; Red-black, > WTF. My reaction times are slower than almost all of the younger people I > have to train with. And they can tag me in the head whether I have my > hands up or not. Maybe that means I'm not as good as they are. And that's > right, I'm not! But I'm doing the best I can. So when we are sparring > what is the joy in trying to kill me by repeatedly kicking me in the head > if I can't stop them? To me that doesn't sound like the same deal that started this thread. It sounded like the female in question was dropping her hands and *allowing* the kicks to the head. Not that she couldn't do anything about it, she *wouldn't* do anything about it. There's a big difference in my book. If I was fighting someone who had a problem of any kind, I would adjust my fighting accordingly. That includes a rather strong guy with a learning disability, a gentleman with an artificial leg, and several "older" students who were not lightning fast but gave their all. I adjusted by not beating on them, but slowing down and working with them. If there was a glaring problem (i.e. dropping hands) then I would "score" with a technique and then stop and tell them why I was able to do it. About 90% of the time I got an "Oh, thanks!" response and they worked on correcting. That sounds more like your situation to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > She could have simply said to > the one who kept kicking her in the head, "Hey, you've made your point. > You can kick me in the head anytime you want to. I didn't see that as the point. He couldn't kick her in the head "whenever he wanted", but whenever she dropped her hands. The way I see it (IMHO) that's a lapse on her part, not his. If she was trying block and he kept bashing her brains in then that's another matter, but the original post says "I was recently sparring a woman in class who didn't keep her hands up to protect her head." Of course, we only have Chris' side of the story, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. > My penny's worth. I'd say that's easily worth $.04, I just don't agree. I think it's 2 different matters. > Now I'll wait for all those who want to tell me that TKD > is better off because I left since I obviously wasn't good enough to make > it anyway. Not a chance! Ray "not as good as this post makes it sound" Wagner ------------------------------ From: Howard Wilson Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:10:44 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Board Holder Hi Tony, I was at another school and saw just what you are talking about. It was in another town but I will be going back there 4/3/99 for a tournament so if you still need info I will try to get it for you. Howard Wilson (ATA) howard@one.net > From: Tony Preston > Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:04:57 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Searching for Board holder gizmo... > > I got a coupld of 2 inch and 3 inch plastic finger protectors for board > holders. They are simple plastic things that look like: > _ > ) > [_ <-- 2 boards fit here > > They have no markings on them showing who made them and are hard > plastic. They should work good for 2" or 3" breaks protecting the > fingers of the holders. I am trying to find out where I can get > some more of them.... I don't remember where I got these from... > > Anyone seen these things and know where I can get more > ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:13:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: What would you say...? I'm certain many, if not most, of the subscribers to this list have had this experience. You find yourself in a non martial arts related social setting when the fact that you train surfaces in conversation. Someone asks where you train, and upon receiving that information, volunteers that they, or their little Sally, has been training at Master Quok's Nirvana of the Known Universe Martial Arts studio for the past 2-1/2 years (Master Quok is hypothetical, I hope I've picked an "impossible" name). The problem is that you know that Master Quok's is a belt mill of the first magnitude, run first and foremost in the interests of Quok's finances and convenience, and only incidentally, if at all, for the betterment of his students. You have talked to his students and/or their parents about various aspects of his training methods and philosophy, you've seen demos that he has done to recruit students, and you've watched several of his former students who switched to your dojang, and you have been singularly unimpressed with any of the above. In other words, to you, Quok is clearly a crock. So what would you say or do when the subject comes up in casual conversation (I'm not talking about someone asking advice of you, that's obvious to me)? If you take it upon yourself to start listing the faults of Master Quok's methods, the person may well react with disbelief, hostility, or both, and with some justification. After all, as an advanced student or instructor with a competitor, you may well have a conflict of interest, and you are in a sense demeaning the investment in training that the student has made. Do you believe that you have an obligation as a martial artist to impart the truth as you see it to this person regardless of the social consequences? If so, would you state your opinion of Master Quok straight up, or attempt to draw out the student or parent on the subject of training goals and whether those goals are actually met (don't forget, in this setting such a tactic takes time, and you may lose your audience before your point is made). Or would you just change the subject of conversation without any comment about Master Quok, and look for the first opportunity to make a quick getaway? Tang Soo! Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@cyberenet.net ------------------------------ From: Angie Reed Garner Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:17:01 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #169 Hello everyone- Thank you Forrest for your post. This thread and the one other about students facing physical and emotional difficulties have been difficult for me. I have arthritis and am very slow especially towards the end of class due to fatigue. I also have some loss of mobility in my lower back which has meant that I am not able to be very effective with some techniques. I doubt I will ever have the opportunity to kick anyone in the head four times in a single sparring practice! On my best day of my best month, I have gotten a spin kick to the level of my instructor's head. That was a pretty special day- it was the result of a lot of good teaching and patience on his part, plus me coming back over and over to train even when things that were so easy for others were so painful or impossible for me. When I started training, I could not reach down past the middle of my shins without great pain. Now I am so flexible I doubt any bystander could tell about my physical problems. The rest of my body has developed strength and flexibility to compensate for the immobility in my lower spine. It is amazing what martial arts practice- with its incrementally-increasing demands on the body- has allowed me to accomplish. I can't see why anyone would want to kick me, or anyone else, four times in the head. It would seem after the second or third kick that the student has amply established that they are proficient at head-kicking. And after failing to block two or three times, I would imagine that I would have amply demonstrated that, at least for that day, I am too slow/too tired/ simply not skilled enough to block those kicks. Any more headkicking past this point seems wasteful of valuable class time. Belts represent skill- and components of skill are experience/length of study, exposure to a variety of techniques, and athletic ability. We all start from different places- I think it is a naive interpretation of the belt system that suggests that a higher belt will or should be a more competent sparring partner than a lower belt. I am grateful that my instructor's philosophy revolves around being of service to others and working with people where they are. Classes are structured so that the natural athletes and the people like me get to work and train together and help each other. A commitment to making the art accessible to the less physically or emotionally gifted ~can~ easily rest alongside a commitment to having each student develop his or her own individual maximum potential. Angie Reed Garner >My reaction times are slower than almost all of the younger >people I >have to train with. And they can tag me in the head whether I have >my >hands up or not. Maybe that means I'm not as good as they are. And >that's >right, I'm not! But I'm doing the best I can. So when we are >sparring >what is the joy in trying to kill me by repeatedly kicking me in the >head >if I can't stop them? ojang by providing them with a safe punching bag. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: "Mark M. Smith" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:37:48 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Videoplaybacks and TKD Tournaments At 07:30 PM 3/24/99 -0500, you wrote: >What role do you see video playbacks playing in TKD tournaments >especially now with competition getting heavier and the Olympics taking >shape? None. IMHO TKD is too continuois a sport to allow stop time for video playback. >Do you think they should be used or not to decide matches or protests? >I was just thinking about the on again off again video debate in >football and wondering what everyone else thought about tournaments. Video cannot be used to decide a protest, at least as far as documenting whether a point was scored or not, because this is not a valid basis for protesting. The only basis for a valid protest is if a procedureal mistake was made. For instance: Points not added up correctly penalties assigned to the wrong player, Kyong-go penalty given when only a Gamjeon is allowed (strike after break for instance). This is one reason so many people are frustrated when they protest. The judges/referees judgement on points awarded is NOT debatable under WTF rules. This is how it should be. Anything else leads to endless second guessing which will not produce better matches in the long run. Mark M. Smith Merrimack, NH email: msmith@p2software.com ------------------------------ From: AJ Woodburn Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:39:16 EST Subject: the_dojang: Creative Dicipline/ Dawne Just to keep you laughing: The deal was I learned Pyung Ahn Cho Dan (#4 in our Association) one belt early, but only after I was taught my next form, Kicho Hyung Sam Bu (3) so they had to wait for me to learn two forms before they began learning their last. I was a white belt and knew more than most of the orange belts in the class, I must have taken three weeks to learn both forms(bear with me, I was nine) and I could tell they were getting pretty hot over it. I was to teach them three to four moves a class, 24 movements in all, so It took about another two weeks. I couldnt tell then, but now, as I am a ranknig individual, I could see the instructor's angle.............. also, the kids classes all had a class long lecture on why fighting for trivial reasons is wrong, and the two belts were singled out, I havent heard of a fight since> :-) AJ Woodburn 2nd Dan TSD IMA Dragon102@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:49:51 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrum Mr. Wagner and others, I totally agree with Mr. Wagner here. One should be well rounded and practice any and all styles one can. The aggressive brown belt should learn how to defend head shots and not get upset. However, I think this situation is a little different and I was attempting to address the question I thought Chris was asking. 1. I don't think Chris will learn much from repeatedly kicking an aggressive brown belt in the head. 2. Different martial arts have different rules. Different rules favor different fighting styles. Chris may learn more from changing styles than from repeatedly executing the same techniques. 3. Many times myself and others may have been able to spar other styles without a problem. However, we would have not learned anything from it. By limiting the range of techniques one utilizes from time to time, we can become more well rounded. 4. After a level of trust and appreciation is achieved the aggressive brown belt may go the whole class getting kicked in the head and she may learn from it. Or maybe not. But Chris will learn her techniques and that may be more important here. Some of the people I admire the most can change an uncomfortable situation like this into a positive learning experience. Am I totally off base on this? - -- Scott scink@who.net >From: Ray Wagner >Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:19:13 -0600 >Subject: the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrum > > Scott wrote: > >> However, maybe the Karate class has a different style of sparring which does not >> involve extensive kicking to the head as other styles such as TKD. If one can >> use only the techniques and style of sparring that the difficult sparring >> partner is using it may go a long way to demonstrating the proper patience and >> control. If you can beat her at her own game with her own rules she may not >> have a reason to lash out anymore. > >I don't agree with that approach. It seems like "inbreeding" to me. If >they have a particular style and that's all they ever see then that's >all they'll ever be able to defend against. (Extreme hypothetical >situation coming) What happens if she gets into a big bar fight and Jean >Claude Van Damme throws a big ol' roundhouse kick to her head? Is she >going to threaten him with a punch to the face just after she picks her >head up off the floor? Unless such techniques are forbidden in your >sparring, I see no reason not to use the weapons you have. > >Personally, I think it's a VERY good thing to spar people who don't >train like you do. Currently I'm training at a TKD school that's also >affiliated with a karate school. I really enjoy going to the karate >school for "fight night" and sparring with people who train in kenpo and >shurite karate. I get punched in the head more than I like, but I'm >learning from it. They do a lot of front kick lead with 3+ followup >punches and such. I can generally keep them from really connecting but >they're still getting through my defense better than I like. Ergo >getting hit in the head is a good thing. ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:33:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Temper tantrum > Mr. Wagner and others, > Scott, your temper tantrum :) came thru three times, same post. I killed two of them. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Alexander, Stephen" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:57:42 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Losing the spirit. Hi guys. Just thought maybe someone out there could give me a pep talk or something. I seem to be losing complete interest in TKD.. Not only that but all my other sports as well, boxing, cycling, running... I can't seem to explain it. I don't know if it's because of the amount of work I have been doing lately or what. When I do make myself go, I love it, it's just becoming harder and harder to make myself do things these days. I have been practicing TKD for 5 years now and don't want to give it up, but, I just don't seem to have "the drive" I used to. Anyone out there got some ideas on how to get the mind back to focussing on my art / sports ?... Bummed out. Steve Alexander To win 100 victories in 100 battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill. Sun Tzu / Gichin Funakoshi ....... Take your pick ! ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:14:39 PST Subject: the_dojang: Silent Injuries The temper tantrum thread was quite a reality check for me. It took me back over the years to the many diverse martial arts practitioners that I have worked with over the years and that have taken me into their confidence and shared some very incredible stories as to why they are training in m.a. Speaking for myself I know that when I'm working out or sparring this is not utmost in my mind but I do need to remind myself once in awhile that many adults come to the dojang with silent injuries. If someone walks in with a sling on their arm or a bandage on their head we immediately proceed with caution around them or express our sympathy. But our society doesn't permit that with silent injuries. So many people that train are overcoming some incredible issues and fears. And their journey is filled with stumbling blocks and detours. Some are on depressant medications like Prozac, some are taking St. Johns Wort, some are adult ADD. Some are working through past histories of assaults and abuse or violent car accidents. These things are not physically obvious to us but could be exacerbated by something like sparring and present in some interesting ways. So for every person that just wants to kick the dog (so to speak)because they are just plain mean spirited there is another one that just by coming to class has probably climbed a very high mountain. Just some thoughts. Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Lee & Michele Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:19:27 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang:Searching for Board holder gizmo... I just purchased a set from AWMA. They sell both single and double board holders. Michele Weiland > I got a coupld of 2 inch and 3 inch plastic finger protectors for board > holders. They are simple plastic things that look like: > _ > ) > [_ <-- 2 boards fit here > > They have no markings on them showing who made them and are hard > plastic. They should work good for 2" or 3" breaks protecting the > fingers of the holders. I am trying to find out where I can get > some more of them.... I don't remember where I got these from... > > Anyone seen these things and know where I can get more Mutual respect always! Lee Olsen and Michele Weiland Wisconsin Ao Denkou Kai Port Washington, Wisconsin shelee@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~shelee/adk/adk.html ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:23:20 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Temper tantrum or disrespected? > From: "Forrest S. Clark" > Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:34:17 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Brett Erwin on Re: Temper Tantrum > > Thanks, Brett, for a well thought-out response to the post on "Temper > Tantrum." The balance and understanding in your statement have brought me > out of my long-lasting lurkerhood to voice my appreciation. And as soon > as > I get flamed by those whose responses with which I disagree, I'll probably > return to that lurking . > > I have been surprised by the vehement response of others (but I shouldn't > have been given my own experience). I'm 51, Brown belt ITF; Red-black, > WTF. My reaction times are slower than almost all of the younger people I > have to train with. And they can tag me in the head whether I have my > hands up or not. Maybe that means I'm not as good as they are. And > that's > right, I'm not! But I'm doing the best I can. So when we are sparring > what is the joy in trying to kill me by repeatedly kicking me in the head > if I can't stop them? > > forrest s. clark > sun prairie, wi > fsclark@inxpress.net > > >From: jberwin@sc45.rsc.raytheon.com (John Brett Erwin 972-952-3738 ERWN) > >Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:26:28 -0600 (CST) > >Subject: the_dojang: Re: Temper Tantrum > > > >> I was recently sparring ... After landing about half a dozen > > >>right leg roundhouses in a four minute period she ... told me that if I > kicked her > >>in the head one more time she was going to "punch me in the face". > > > >There are three factors contributing to this problem: > >1) The contact itself: > >2) Embarrassment: > >3) Bad attitude: > > > >The best solution is simply to make friends with her. ... If your > >co-students in the dojo/dojang aren't your friends, then training can be > >miserable. > > > >Best of luck, > > > >Brett Erwin > >Allen, TX > >jberwin@raytheon.com > > > > Brett and Forrest, thank you both for responding with reason and maturity. I've been amazed at some of the responses I've been reading to the original from ChrisM. Have that many people out there lost their concept of respect? Respect for the belt level (I don't care what rank you hold in another style, you're outranked in this one), respect for an elder, respect for someone that may just be working a whole lot harder than you for their achievements, respect for the notion that not everybody has the same approach to training that you do, and that yours isn't the only way. It was said the woman "takes everything very seriously". And Chris doesn't? Come on now, there are going to be other sparring partners that will test you. Take this case as a lesson in learning self-control and respect, things that will nicely complement your physical skills. And while I'm on that subject I've gotta toss in $.02 on the gentleman who knelt rather than spar a BB that chastised him for kicking her head. An appropriate response would have been "Yes Ma'am, I'm sorry", and keep sparring. Again, respect! Forrest, I'm sorry to hear you felt the need to leave TKD. It sounds like you are the very sort of balanced person that a dojang needs to help in the education of those that think physical prowess is everything. Here's hoping you can find a way to get back into it! And don't go back to lurking. That was an excellent post. Kerry Atchinson kerry.atchinson@wichita.boeing.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:40:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Illinois > > Ray "the Illini" Wagner > Here, too. Went to grad school at UIUC. And then worked at ISU. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:47:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #170 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.