From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #172 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 26 March 1999 Vol 06 : Num 172 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: What would you say...? the_dojang: Head kicking. the_dojang: For Little "Karate Kids" the_dojang: Working on bad leg [was Temper Tantrum] the_dojang: They Shoot The Messenger - Quok the_dojang: Goin Ahead the_dojang: RE: Temper tantrums & respect the_dojang: Re: Trip to Seoul the_dojang: Re: KSW/HKD vs. grabs, punches... the_dojang: make up exam the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:39:25 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: What would you say...? When is someone is telling you in a conversation that either they or their children take MA at Master Quock's, they are usually looking for reassurance that the money they spent and the decision they made were the right ones. If you start laying in with Master Quock only looks out for his back pocket type of speech, most likely they will defend Master Quock, because no one likes to be told they they made a bad investment. One thing to try is finding out something that you do like about Master Quock and telling that to them. Example: "Yeah, I really like Master Quock's breaking technique." BE SINCERE about whatever compliment you may give. You may then talk about the other students that quit his school and started at yours. Example: "A couple of his students are now training with me, they said they liked Master Quock's technique, but they felt the price was a bit high for them." or something to that matter. The point is that you want them to start saying yes to what you are saying. You want them to discover "for themselves" that Master Quock is a crock. Another tactic is saying something like "If you like Master Quock, then you should stop by and watch Master Widget's classes. He is a nice gentleman." Again BE SINCERE. This is a way to show that you are not trying steal students, but to keep their options open. The final thing I would recommend is that you say "Hey that is great that you (or your kids) take martial arts. If you're ever in the neighborhood, stop by and work out with us. I would love to have you as a guest." There is nothing wrong with exchanging ideas with students and teachers from other schools. It builds good martial art ties. Plus this is a great way to have them see for themselves the difference in teachings. I hope this helps Jeremy JeremyT@atfi.com Horangi99@compuserve.com ------------------------------ From: Ernest Hart Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:34:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Head kicking. If the person was very polite and asked you not to kick them in the head any more this round, stop. If they're threatening you, they don't deserve to be on the floor with you. This is a huge safety violation. IMHO, person should have been removed from class. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ E. Hart ehart@zoo.uvm.edu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:11:59 PST Subject: the_dojang: For Little "Karate Kids" FYI - If you've got a little karate kid in your house or dojang. Opening Days: Sports Poems by Lee Bennett Hopkins Has a Karate Kid Poem in it with a picture. See below. Jane Yolen's "Karate Kid," with its jerky rhythm, is fun to read aloud, and the action picture opposite picks up the boy's power and uncertainty. The images are verbal and visual in this illustrated anthology of 18 poems about individual kids swimming, cycling, weight lifting, skiing, running, playing ball. Full-page color oil paintings illustrate each poem with movement and energy. There's a piece by Whitman, but most of the poems are contemporary. Roy Wesson's small poem about a 40-mile bike ride ("My feet / And seat / Are beat" ) is wonderfully extended with a double-page painting of bike, gear, and cyclist collapsed on the grass. There are dreamy poems, too, about shooting that winning goal, but there are no portentous parallels of sport as metaphor. The joyful focus here is on the physicalness of playing the game. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Stan Lim Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:44:12 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Working on bad leg [was Temper Tantrum] >From: Ray Wagner >I was thinking about this on my drive this morning and something else >popped in the ol' noggin. If I'm sparring someone and can easily kick >them in the head I usually tell them why I can kick them in the head >repeatedly and then switch leads. My left leg is very inept as compared >to my right. It's not that I can't do the kicks and all, it just >doesn't like to spar (ar at least it feels that way). This way, things >are slowed down a bit so the other person can think about what they're >doing and I'm working on my bad leg. > >Ray Wagner Funny you should mention that. Being a "rightie" my right kicks are stronger. A few of us in my dojang have noticed however, that our left legs seem to be more flexible, i.e. kicks are higher or more "relaxed". Anyone else notice this? My theory is that the right leg provides more stable support when we kick with the left, hence the greater flexibility. That said, I've kicked a few sparring partners in the head, and in all the instances that I can remember, I landed it with my left leg. My strategy is to use my right kicks for strong kicks, usually to the body, while I use my left leg for faster, lighter kicks, usually targeted at the head or for setting up my next kick. I shouldn't be saying this on the list since a few of my dojang mates are on this list as well and I might be sparring them soon :-) I fear not as I have had to adapt my training to accomodate my still healing knee injury and I have a few new tricks up my dobok. :-) Tae Kwon! Stan Lim 3rd Kup WTF-TKD, San Jose, CA ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:58:27 PST Subject: the_dojang: They Shoot The Messenger - Quok And even in the McDojangs students can get VERY dedicated to their instructor, and sometimes even to their organization, regardless of "quality of training" or philosophy, or motivation, or whatever. I'm sure you've all read stuff on this forum from the "blindly following my teacher/organization" types. And telling them, even with much tact, that their training is somehow lacking can be very hurtful to them, and very damaging to your relationship (and maybe your head, haa haa). Some times silence is the best response. Greg Giddins _________________________________________________ Well put, Greg. Reminds me of the old stories about messengers that used to deliver good and bad news to townspeople. In those days people shot the messenger that bore bad news and now we have that expression "Don't Shoot the Messenger." But people still do! Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:10:59 EST Subject: the_dojang: Goin Ahead Do any of the instructors here feel it would be disrespectful for a student to learn form ahead of his belt through a video tape or book ? ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:08:35 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Temper tantrums & respect Ray W said: > From: Ray Wagner > Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:52:16 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #170 > > Kerry Atchinson wrote: > > > Brett and Forrest, thank you both for responding with reason and > maturity. > > I've been amazed at some of the responses I've been reading to the > original > > from ChrisM. Have that many people out there lost their concept of > respect? > > Depends on your definition of respect. If that upper belt had said > something along the lines of "Please don't kick me in the head again. > It's obvious I'm not blocking and I need to work on it." then that would > command respect. Someone getting in your face and saying "If you do > that again I'm going to punch you in the face." does not. If someone > wants respect they must act respectably. > > I respect my elders. I respect people of higher rank. As a novel > approach I respect lower ranks too. I try to give everyone the benefit > of the doubt. But if they give me a reason to not respect them then it > takes a long time to build that back. I guess I respect *people*, more > than ranks or ages. I would rather have people respect me because of > who I am and what I do than because I have a black piece of cloth > hanging around my waist. > > Ray Wagner > > Ray, I certainly didn't mean to imply the brown belt's actions were without fault. And I agree, it does depend on your definition of respect. For me, a ranking belt acting like that would also cause me to lose respect. The difference I see is that I don't feel (like a lot of people seem to) that allows me to behave disrespectfully in turn. I can think, "What a jerk", but what I need to do is say "Yes Ma'am, I'm sorry". And this makes an interesting thing possible. When I change my behavior to be respectful, it frequently follows that my way of thinking also changes. I may no longer think "What a jerk", but instead, "Gee, maybe she's had a bad week at the office". We all have our off-moments. If every time a ranking belt suffered a lapse we decided we didn't have to show respect to them anymore, I don't think any of our dojangs would last too long. Perhaps out in the "real" world that we are forced to deal with we can say "respect me if you want respect from me", but if you're in a MA, then you're choosing to be in a situation where respect is required of you. And that MA training should be spilling over into your approach to the "real" world. But then again, sometimes I can be a little old-fashioned. Just ask my daughters. ;) I think Jamaica's words were especially appropriate, so I'll take the liberty of copying them here in closing: Speaking for myself I know that when I'm working out or sparring this is not utmost in my mind but I do need to remind myself once in awhile that many adults come to the dojang with silent injuries. If someone walks in with a sling on their arm or a bandage on their head we immediately proceed with caution around them or express our sympathy. But our society doesn't permit that with silent injuries. So many people that train are overcoming some incredible issues and fears. And their journey is filled with stumbling blocks and detours. Some are on depressant medications like Prozac, some are taking St. Johns Wort, some are adult ADD. Some are working through past histories of assaults and abuse or violent car accidents. These things are not physically obvious to us but could be exacerbated by something like sparring and present in some interesting ways. So for every person that just wants to kick the dog (so to speak)because they are just plain mean spirited there is another one that just by coming to class has probably climbed a very high mountain. Kerry kerry.atchinson@wichita.boeing.com ------------------------------ From: Ken Brown Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:39:01 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Trip to Seoul Ray- Thanks for the helpful advice on my trip. I had a great time in Seoul, but unfortunately wasn't able to visit a Dojang. Mostly just spent time with my cousins, and made a day trip down to TaeJon. I was able to get a hold of a few HKD texts that I'd never run across before. Maybe next year I'll be able to venture far south to Kwangju, Pusan and hopefully Chejudo. Ken Brown, Chicago, IL ------------------------------ From: Ken Brown Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:56:21 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: KSW/HKD vs. grabs, punches... >> against most hand strikes. But if the student only practices the >> techniques >> starting from a wrist seize what good is it when the attacker throws a >> punch, or a multiple series of attacks. Some techniques can be used off a punch. W epractice entries to wrist locks, throws and armbars off the front punch to both the face and the chest in my dojang. >> I wanted to know, if the Kuk Sool, Hakido and similar dojangs, always >> teach and practice their techniques the same way. Ex: Sohn Mok Soo #? 1) >> Start from horse stance, 2) opponent grabs wrist, 3), apply the techniques This is basically how we do it. But then there is the Ki Bon Sul series, which is later followed by Ju Mok Ki Bon Sul, which is off the front kick-punch. Since many of the actual joint locks and concurrent throws/takedowns are basically the same as Son Mok Sul from a different posture, I more or less feel it's kind of an extension of those techniques. >> OR do they learn to block the strike (maybe trap it), hit the >> opponent with >> a counter strike, and then apply a KukSool Hapkido technique. Once in a while, some senior students and I will get together and freestyle; you don't know what's coming: grab, punch, kick, so the idea is block(or trap) then lock or takedown. But this is not part of the regular class, just something we do on our own. >Not trying to be a fuddy-duddy here, but I am REALLY curious about: > >Has anyone ever tried this technique against some one that wasn't going to >let you do it and was possibly stronger than you? I prefer to work out with partners who resist when we practice. I have had a really hard time with some of my techniques, that have worked well on "softer" practice partners in this situation. Keeps me focused on what I need to work on. >I say this because our school used to have a WHOLE BUNCH of knife >self-defense techniques. They looked good. But most of the >time......OUR KNIFE SELF-DEFENSE TECHNIQUES WERE >CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I find a lot of techniques I "know" don't work too hot when resisted. I also find that when "freestyling" like I described briefly above, I more or less resort to techniques that seem to universally work, and almost always involve at least a "softening" strike. I think there was some debate on the tkd-net a little while ago about using "softening" techniques. I guess the way I look at it is that if I was ever in a real situation, I do evertything I could to soften my opponent. But I mostly try to walk(or run, if necessary) away from situations. One guy at our dojang, who goes to college at a school that has a fairly rowdy scene at most every bar/party has used his HKD on 3 seperate occsions to very good effect against some pretty beefy guys(those corn-fed boys down at SIU...) Ken Brown, Chicago, IL ------------------------------ From: "Laura Kamienski" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:04:23 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: make up exam Hi All, An update about my black belt test. I had to miss the March 20th scheduled public portion of my black belt exam because of a death in the family. My instructor was kind enough to allow me to perform a public make up test this evening at my dojang. I passed and was promoted to First Dan Chin Mu Kwan Tae Kwon Do. In six months I perform again for my 'decided' status, at which time I will receive my federation certificate and belt. Tonight I experienced what was the most intense moment of my life...having my instructor tie my black belt around my waist. I cried. Laura lkamiens@ptd.net lkamnski@bucknell.edu http://www.students.bucknell.edu/lkamnski http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "The destination is not the purpose of a journey; death is not the purpose of life." -Thich Nhat Hanh ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:55:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #172 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.