From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #230 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 30 April 1999 Vol 06 : Num 230 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #226 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #226 the_dojang: One More M.A.Greeting Card Site from Jamaica the_dojang: Women M.A. Questions - Followup and More the_dojang: Re: sweating Re: the_dojang: Re: sweating the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #228 the_dojang: Re: that pesky gender thing the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #227 the_dojang: Respect/Formality... the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. 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Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:13:57 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #226 In a message dated 4/28/99 6:15:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << US National Team Trials May 7-8 Colorado Spgs, Colorado >> changed to May 8-9 SESilz ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:26:22 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #226 In a message dated 4/28/99 6:15:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << "I will give you the respect you deserve here, but out on the street we are equal." >> Regarding this comment, I was raised in taekwondo to understand that a father is a father any time, place, in any situation; his name was always "Dad," and would always be treated appropriately. Accordingly, my SaBom Nim is my SaBom Nim any time, as well. Whether I am in the dojang, at a taekwondo event, in his home, or at the shopping mall, I treat him with the same deference and follow the same protocol. My students have learned the same traditions and values from me and treat me similarly whether we meet in class, or at the movie theater. Personally, I am happy that this unique traditional relationship has been perpetuated for another generation, and hope it can continue for many more. Master S.E. Silz ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:28:17 PDT Subject: the_dojang: One More M.A.Greeting Card Site from Jamaica For those of you that don't have this site here is one more martial art greeting card that I found. I listed two sites about a week ago on the digest; but they were both martial art sites. The neat thing about this site is that it is more of a commercial site that recognizes us martial artists in their sports section and I thought that was just too awesome. So for those that are interested here it is: http://www1.bluemountain.com/eng/sports/index.html jamaica@hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:01:31 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Women M.A. Questions - Followup and More Thank you to all the women that took the time to answer the questions to my post (both on the digest and through private email). I appreciated the effort and was inspired by the variety of thoughts and training that everybody is doing. We certainly have a large and varied contingency of talented m.a. women on this forum. I am honored to be part of this group. I will compile the information and send it privately to those that responded. I know some people don't feel comfortable posting and some women are moms of martial artists so if you would also like a copy to read just send me a short private email and I will make sure you also get a copy. And men instructors or students if you would like a copy to read and evaluate your own school the offer is also open to you :) It won't be super fancy or anything but certainly informational. I know I'm going to put it into my personal "TKD Think Tank" file. I have this file for days when I want to be inspired. I just pull out these wonderful stories and read them. Very uplifting. It will take me a couple weeks to finish it so if any other women (any age group) would still like to send their thoughts through there is still plenty of time. Here's the AND MORE part: Dawne, a frequent poster on this forum has decided to take it upon herself the challenge of taking this questionnaire one step further. Dawne will be developing a questionnaire and will use a statistical program to analyze the results. Dawne will be distributing her questionnaire to various schools via hard copy. She will also be approaching a variety of schools via the internet to see if they will post this questionnaire. All results will be shared. This is Dawne's ambitious project but I have happily agreed to help her distribute the questionnaire. So with that introduction I will stop and I am sure Dawne will have a followup post to this digest explaining it from her perspective. Should be not only very interesting but very informative. Good luck Dawne. jamaica_power@hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:14:43 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: sweating Tang Soo! I think this is a great topic to discuss because we cannot ever forget that we are human machines, and yes some of us sweat. I am a woman, and I sweat almost every class I take. It is a good sign that I am working at my peak, and I am sure that others who sweat are also working at their peak as well. I think that we all agree that in the environment of MA, or any gym, we would expect to see sweat. My husband sweats big time, as a couple of other men do too. My pet peave are the classless women who make embarressing comments when they have to work with my husband on self defense. They will say "eeeeww, he's so sweaty, do I have to work with him?" I am not kidding, these are grown women who do this. Now, my husband will not ever let it known that it hurts his feelings, but why must people be so insensitive? He is not like a human fountain, I just mean he works up a decent sweat...normal for a hardworking MA'st. Does anyone ever run into this? Tang Soo! Allison Duffy 3rd Gup International Tang Soo Do MBS Karate, Newburgh, NY ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: sweating > Now, my husband will not ever let it known that it hurts his feelings, but > why must people be so insensitive? He is not like a human fountain, I just > mean he works up a decent sweat...normal for a hardworking MA'st. Does anyone > ever run into this? Yep. I, too, am a sweater. Never liked sports or workouts in which I couldn't feel a good sweat during the work (e.g. swimming laps). Most will just be starting we get a wet brow when I've already sweat through my uniform. Got into the habit 28 years ago when on the high school wrestling team (used to spend time in the illegal and dangerous sweatboxes jumping rope to lose lbs). I've heard (?) that a heavy even sweat is a sign of a healthy person (at least I'd like to believe that :). Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:24:11 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #228 In a message dated 4/29/99 2:06:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << In discussing respect with a fellow instructor, we reflected on a > comment by one student: "I will give you > the respect you deserve here, but out on the street we are equal." >> I have noticed a contradiction in this statement that occurs in contrasting respect with equality. Respect and equality are mutually exclusive of one another. One can certainly have respect for a superior, or for an inferior. No? Can't an Admiral have respect for a lower ranking officer or a Seaman, for that matter? It is just a matter of protocol that the junior officer salutes his senior first. And what is equality, anyhow? All Americans are supposed to be "equal in the eyes of the law," and every adult citizen may cast one vote, but that in no way means that we are equal in every capacity. In fact, inequality exists on every level of society. In our population there are vast disparities in physical strength, and mental prowess, financial capability, golf ability, and political power, height, beauty, education, experience, corporate position, military rank, family unity and individual wisdom, to name a few. So, who is going to tell me by what means do you measure "equal?" And, for that matter, what does it have to do with respect? S.E. Silz ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:11:23 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: that pesky gender thing Dawne wrote: >Sandy, I enjoyed your post but wanted to make a comment. It is unfortunate >but TRUE that the women I know outside of ma circles have a "it won't happen >to me attitude". We're talking 85 -90% of my fellow students (all girl >college), neighbors and family. For this reason some people may >overcompensate in those Ladies Self Defense classes. Their intentions are >good. I don't want to live in a state of paranoia, but growing up where I >did I have a *better safe than sorry attitude*. Pretty much we have to >accept that the dojang is really no different than any other part of our >lives - gender issues come up. Its really more important how we handle them. Well I'm glad you enjoyed it :) Seriously I do see your point. And I have never actually BEEN to a women's self defense class so I concede any info I ahve about them is at best second hand. I agree with you definitely with "better safe than sorry". And I REALLY agree that with any issue what's most important is how we handle it. >I am completly comfortable with being taught *as a woman* b/c in my dojang it >is done well. That doesn't mean that I don't understand your point. I >wouldn't want to be taught math or cooking *as a woman* :0) What I do >want/need is an awareness on the part of my GM that I am a short female, I >lack upper body strength and I do not cross-train for building muscle. I >want my GM to think "what can I teach her and have her practice again and >again that will work on a 6 ft. 200 lb. lump of muscle?" Because of this I >am learning great techniques with elbows, knees and palm strikes. Ground >fighting is coming into play with the standard joint locks & holds. In fact, >come to think of it our GM has an even better perspective. He focuses on our >strengths to develop them and lets us know how an attacker may try to exploit >a weakness. Sounds like you have a really good instructor who addresses your needs as an individual, which is what I was lobbying for to begin with. I feel my instructor does this too. he tells me what I can't get away with against someone twice my size. The gender things just is not mentioned outright and because I personally am real blind to it maybe I'm the only one who isn't thinking about it :) But I have also heard my instructor tell a smaller male to not underestimate the length of *my* legs (I am fairly tall and long legs for my height)... and didn't think that was a gender issue. Again, this is what I am advocating, what your GM does, teach each student to be the best they can be. >IF you weren't a m.a. do you think you would feel differently? If all you >attended was a self-defense class how would you want it to be run, the same >or modified from what you do now? If your mom, daughter or sister didn't >want to take any m.a. classes but wanted a self-defense class once a week how >would you want it to go? Well, I do see a self defense class as quite a different thing from the regular sort of ma training, at least in tkd, which is all I can speak of. If my mom wanted to take a self defense class I'd suggest it should include much "mental" training (awareness, how to avoid dangerous situations, etc). I'd suggest a firearms safety and instruction also. But PLEASE no one use that comment to jump off an a gun thread, or at least don't expect me to participate in it. My actual mom is about to start taking tai chi and my understanding is one must study tai chi for a LONG TIME before it becomes useful for self-defense. Many people who are involved in running self defense classes ahve posted before on the better ways to do that and I defer to them. I think it is imporant though that it is not something you do 2 or 3 times and then forget all about it but think you have some sort of useful skill that makes you overconfident. >Here's a thought - maybe I am comfortable being taught as a woman because it >is a women's self-defense class. Also, in the *regular* classes we are all >taught and treated the same. Maybe that is key to good training for women. >Look forward to hearing from you. >Dawne I guess that would make a difference, if a class is all women. I have never been in that situation so can't really comment on how I would feel about it. I'm certainly not opposed to it, was just throwing out, in response to Jamaica, why her question made me vaguely uncomfortable. I still think a class of all women for women is a more appropriate place to teach someone "as a woman" than a reglar tkd class. I do see your points as well, and thank you for particpating in this discussion. Sandy tokay@netwurx.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:56:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #227 In a message dated 4/29/99 11:07:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << "Does your instructor teach you any philosophy? If so, what is the philosophy that is taught? How is it instilled in you as a student?" >> In my first taekwondo school, philosophy was taught through our membership oath, definition of taekwondo, school rules, and the spirit of the taekwondo practitioner. All of which we had to memorize and recite at promotion tests. At my second taekwondo school, I helped out a lot with the childrens classes, and that instructor indirectly taught volumes to his students on self confidence, self esteem, doing your best, and never giving up. Even adults that went to his school felt better about themselves. At the third taekwondo school I attended, it was mostly warm up drills, sparring drills, and sparring. Philosophy played a minor part, and I missed it. I think all the students were missing something very important. I didn't stay there very long. The philosophy that I learned and believe in about taekwondo is what keeps me training and teaching and I'll never give up. CF ------------------------------ From: "J. Thomas Howard" Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:52:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Respect/Formality... Mark Lasich said: >In discussing respect with a fellow instructor, we reflected on a >comment by one student: "I will give you >the respect you deserve here, but out on the street we are equal." ..to which there have been a number of very good answers. The one I really appreciated was when someone made the (very important, IMO) distinction between respect and formality. In class, to my students, I'm a "Sir" or a "Sabunim." However, several of my students have been good friends of mine for years--having them call me "Sir" all the time would not only be silly, but they'd probably whack me around for even mentioning it. I suppose it would be good "multiple attacker scenario" practice, but I'd really rather not :) So we have rather a compromise, and it holds for all of my students (can't be making special cases here) ---outside of class, if one of us is in uniform, or it is directly martial arts related, I'm a "Sir," the rest of the time, I'm Thomas. (Or whatever else they'd call me, as long as it isn't too derogatory :) Back when I was in Denver, I ranked my boss at the time. In class, he called me "Sir." Having him do that while at work (while perhaps occasionally personally satisfying) really would not have been a good idea. But that all really has to do with protocol and formality, as opposed to respect. If my students don't respect me in class for the knowledge I have, then they should find a class where they _can_ respect the instructor---and I tell them that. I respect them for trying, for giving their time, and for learning. It goes two ways---if I have a student I can't respect, for some reason, then I probably don't think he should be learning a martial art from me. Does having them call me sir make them respect me? I doubt it. Is it a way to mentally reinforce the protocol and rules of order in class? Certainly. I will note at this time that I live in the USA, and things are probably certainly different in other countries. Thomas, Sabum :) - ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net http://www.binary.net/thomcat/Hap.html "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #230 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.