From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #237 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 4 May 1999 Vol 06 : Num 237 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #236 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #236 the_dojang: Sparring Philosophy Re: the_dojang: Sparring Philosophy the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #236 Sparring Philosophy the_dojang: who knows the_dojang: Sparring Philosophy - Rules I Live By the_dojang: Martial Arts Chatrooms the_dojang: Ssirium the_dojang: Teenage rage Re: the_dojang: Martial Arts Chatrooms the_dojang: OK in OK? the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~730 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chuck Sears Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 16:13:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #236 > From: AJ Woodburn > Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:37:13 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Sparring Philosophy > > Recently, a very close friend of mine was a little roughed up in a > sparring match at a tournament we recently attended. She was punched > over the left eye and kicked in the back, both were called points and she > now has a black eye. Let's not get hung up on a judging thread, we all > know that a few judges have, do, and will always judge unfairly, this is > not my point. > > I am kin to those who entertain the philosophy of being disqualified > rather than losing matches. I also entertain a philosophy that, if your > opponent wishes to turn the match into a fight, you should fight back. > If your opponent wants to hit you hard and bend the rules, you have to > take it to the next level and bend them yourself. Sorry, I gotta disagree with this. It's the "everybody else is doing it" excuse for justifying your own mistakes. Tournament rules are in place for a variety of reasons, predominantly safety. If a point is called incorrectly, live with it. Overcoming adversity is one of the basic tenents of martial arts. If the contact was incidental, that's just part of it. Don't take the competition down to a streetfight - everybody loses when that happens. Now if the contact was made deliberately/malicously/whatever and the judges aren't calling it, that's a different story. One of the best responses I have ever seen was a person who was deliberately kicking hard. She had been overheard to say that she was going to do it. She kicked her first opponent hard and it was not called. Her opponent bowed out of the match and *politely* gave as her reason the fact that she was unaware that the rules had been changed to allow deliberate contact. While the next match was running, the lady that bowed out got the tournament director over to the ring. When the first woman sparred her next match, the director observed her whacking on the next victim, stepped in, spoke with the judges and had the woman disqualified. ------------------------------ From: Chris Brogden Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:14:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #236 > As many probably already know, there is an interesting article in the June > 1999 issue of Black Belt on the connection between Daito-Ryu AikiJujutsu > and GM CHOI Yong-sul's Yawara/Hapkido. > > I suspect a great many will view this article with some controversy, esp > those in the Daito-Ryu / Aikido camp. > - --------------------------------------------------------- What was the general gist of the article? Come to think of it, what is/are the current thought(s) as to this subject? Did Aikido develop from Hapkido as well as Daito-Ryu, or the other way around, or is this too simple a view? chris ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 14:20:59 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Sparring Philosophy >>>I am kin to those who entertain the philosophy of being disqualified >>>rather than losing matches. I also entertain philosophy that, if your >>>opponent wishes to turn the match into a fight, you should fight back. If >>>your opponent wants to hit you hard and bend the rules, you have to take >>>it to the next level and bend them yourself. I guess this was too much for her and she just kinda broke down. Obvoiously, this upset me as well at the rest of the group greatly. >>>>. A J Woodburn ================================================== IMHO with some very strong feelings on this topic. Things I would personally do. First if she was getting hurt as her coach I would have thrown in the towel no matter what the circumstances were. Safety first. You also indicated she kind of broke down. To this I say it would not have been in her best interest to continue to spar/fight because her emotions were in control of her not her skills and techniques. This is a dangerous place to be. Next, I believe once you react to your opponent he is still in control because as you said, you are now not sparring you are fighting and worse yet, fighting out of anger and rage. It has no place in the ring. The opponent has already won. And even if technically he doesn't I don't see any honor in it. Then none of this corrects the situation at hand which is not the bad opponent but as you indicated a bad ref. This should not be dismissed. A complaint should have been filed against the ref in writing. I would have checked the training and credentials of the ref to see if they were even qualified to be there. jamaica_power@hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 17:07:45 -0500 Subject: Re: the_dojang: Sparring Philosophy AJ, I may have to disagree with you here. I know people (including myself) who have beat someone following the rules when our opponent did not. It is very upsetting to have these things happen but it is part of the game. Not only Martial Arts tournaments but other sports have the same problems. I try to tell myself that if I want to win I must be better than they are, no matter what. However, where there no procedures to handle protests? > > I guess my point is that you cant fight by the rules and > beat someone who wont follow them. > > AJ Woodburn > 2nd Dan > TSD - -- Scott Cink scink@who.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 18:27:59 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #236 Sparring Philosophy In a message dated 5/3/99 4:39:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: AJ Woodburn Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:37:13 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Sparring Philosophy Recently, a very close friend of mine was a little roughed up in a sparring match at a tournament we recently attended. She was punched over the left eye and kicked in the back, both were called points and she now has a black eye. Let's not get hung up on a judging thread, we all know that a few judges have, do, and will always judge unfairly, this is not my point. I am kin to those who entertain the philosophy of being disqualified rather than losing matches. I also entertain a philosophy that, if your opponent wishes to turn the match into a fight, you should fight back. If your opponent wants to hit you hard and bend the rules, you have to take it to the next level and bend them yourself. My friend was very upset, she is not the type to fight anyone to hurt them and at the same time was being ROYALLY screwed out of the match. I guess this was too much for her and she just kinda broke down. Obvoiously, this upset me as well at the rest of the group greatly. I guess my point is that you cant fight by the rules and beat someone who wont follow them. >> She sounds just like my friend and looks like her, too, except my friend has a few more bruises all over her body. My friend does point and olympic sparring. I have seen some really brutal women's matches that resemble brawling. My friend usually comes in second. I don't know why she enters tournaments. As a judge, I'll tell you it is very difficult to score properly in those type of matches. Everybody is happy when they are over and if the medics aren't in the ring. My personal philosophy is if that is the type of opponent who wants to bend the rules and take it to another level and if I am not agreeable and if I don't want her or myself to get hurt, or if I feel the judges are judging unfairly I would simply bow out. Hopefully I would feel more of a winner than if stayed in the type of match that represented. ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: who knows > > As many probably already know, there is an interesting article in the June > > 1999 issue of Black Belt on the connection between Daito-Ryu AikiJujutsu > > and GM CHOI Yong-sul's Yawara/Hapkido. > > > > I suspect a great many will view this article with some controversy, esp > > those in the Daito-Ryu / Aikido camp. > > - --------------------------------------------------------- > > What was the general gist of the article? Come to think of it, what > is/are the current thought(s) as to this subject? Did Aikido develop from > Hapkido as well as Daito-Ryu, The founder of Aikido, GM Ueshiba, was a student under Daito-ryu's TAKEDA Sokaku. Aikido was not influenced by GM Choi's art. > or the other way around, or is this too > simple a view? GM Choi claimed to be an adopted son or servant boy to the Takeda family and to have been the only person at the time of GM Takeda's death to have learned all 3808 Daito-ryu AikiJujutsu techniques. The Takeda family claims to have never ever met GM Choi and a Japanese family would not have adopted a Korean child in the early 20th century. ??? I doubt we will ever know the truth of this matter. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 18:08:44 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Sparring Philosophy - Rules I Live By >>>If your opponent wants to hit you hard and bend the rules, you have to >>>take it to the next level and bend them yourself. AJ Woodburn>> ====================================================== Yes, but perhaps take it to the next level in the opposite direction. These are words of wisdom I live by and work for me: "don't ever lower yourself to their level; rather, escalate them to your level." jamaica_power@hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 18:19:02 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Martial Arts Chatrooms Hi - Truth be known I am not a chatroom person. Never was and don't suspect I ever will be....however..I do have an open mind (most of the time).. in the last few weeks I have ironically been approached by more than one person to start/participate in a martial arts chatroom including the new chatrooms that have audio (AT & T) (Hearme), etc. So I'm just wondering how others feel about chatrooms. I know there are a few martial art chatrooms already in progress, quite a few actually including one by Master John Hancock a frequent and respected poster on this digest. I'm sure it is an incredible amount of work to make these happen. I've also seen some chatrooms close. I am looking for any and all experiences and comments on martial arts chatrooms. (Notice I said martial arts chatrooms). There may be others you enjoy say like astronomy, physics, music or math (Big Smile) but I'm only inquiring about martial arts now. Thanks a bunch! jamaica_power@hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Steven Gilmore Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:03:45 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Ssirium Over the past weekend, the local Korean community held an outdoor festival. My instructor and I were invited as part of a group to demonstrate Kuk Sool Won. After our demo, we stayed around and enjoyed the activities, one of which was ssirium (spelling?). I had never seen it before; I asked and was told that it was quite a common game in Korea, so most everyone had played it at some time or another. I wasn't bold enough to try it, but several among our group did -- all were defeated. It looks fun! In retrospect, I wish I had gone boldly where I've never gone before. My question to the group is: have any of you played ssirium before? Sincerely, Steven Gilmore Houston, TX, USA ------------------------------ From: Bernard Eddey Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 09:43:14 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Teenage rage Along with the inevitable search for 'reasons why' in the aftermath of the horrific incident in Littleton, as M.A. teachers we should be looking at the broader issues involved. What drives young men (lets face it - it is usually young men who are the 'problem') to such depths of lack of self worth to even contemplate such incidents. Why are young men so prone to suicide, auto accidents, dying from drug overdoses etc etc? While I have no idea of the background of the two boys involved in the murders (and, let's not forget, suicides) in Littleton, I would warrant that like many of us males in the this century they have been raised in an environment very much dominated by women. Since the industrial revolution child rearing has, more than ever, fallen mainly on women. The majority of primary school teachers are women. That is not to say that women have something to offer, but who teaches boys to be men? In the millenia before industrialisation, boys grew up with their father, uncles and other men in the village. They got to know the inner world of older men, they were often put through some form of 'initiation'. The 'modern' boy rarely has the opportunity to venture into this world so each makes up an 'image' based on the externals, TV, and peers which he then acts out to 'prove' he is a man. As a male teaching martial arts, especially to young men, we can, and do, do a lot more than teach people to kick butt. We have the opportunity to provide something that is obviously missing from the lives of the young (and perhaps not so young) men we are teaching. Have any male instructors considered the occasional 'male-only' session, perhaps under the guidance of an experienced counseller, to explore some of the wider issues? Or don't you see it as your role? Bernard Eddey 1st Dan Shanghai ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Martial Arts Chatrooms > So I'm just wondering how others feel about chatrooms. I know there are a > few martial art chatrooms already in progress, quite a few actually > including one by Master John Hancock a frequent and respected poster on this > digest. I'm sure it is an incredible amount of work to make these happen. > I've also seen some chatrooms close. > > I am looking for any and all experiences and comments on martial arts > chatrooms. (Notice I said martial arts chatrooms). There may be others you > enjoy say like astronomy, physics, music or math (Big Smile) but I'm only > inquiring about martial arts now. I use a couple for the Eskrima list. They are fine, but you can encounter problems with those that simply want to disrupt polite conversation. The best I used had a way for the sysop to remove those causing problems, however it had a problem crashing every once in awhile. :( One good way is to schedule a chat with a featured guest. We tried that several times with good results. People logged in from Guam to Europe... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: OK in OK? Hope everyone is okay in OK. Ronda??? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #237 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.