From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #239 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 4 May 1999 Vol 06 : Num 239 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Um and Yang the_dojang: Meaning of Colored Belts the_dojang: RE: M.A. and Men Only Groups the_dojang: RE: Tornadoes in OK and KS the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #238 the_dojang: sine wave - again... the_dojang: sine wave - again... the_dojang: Teenage Rage/Verbal Self-Defense-Mark the_dojang: Thank You/Follow-Up/Early Moo Duk Kwan Re: the_dojang: Thank You/Follow-Up/Early Moo Duk Kwan the_dojang: MDK starts the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~730 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 08:24:03 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Um and Yang >>>I hope this helps clear things up a little, although you probably already >>>knew most of this. Chris Callahan>>>>> ================================= Thank you and regarding knowing most of this, not necessarily. It never ceases to amaze me the different ways in which things are interpreted and taught. We're all similar but not the same. I really do enjoy reading what and how others were taught. Thank you. jamaica_power@hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 08:28:50 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Meaning of Colored Belts One thing that was absent from my early training was what each colored belt meant and actually what the black belt meant. I had to learn this on my own. And I find it interesting that nobody ever was asked that question at testings (colored belt or black belt). Do lots of your schools teach this as a requirement and ask it at testings? Is it in your school manuals? jamaica_power@hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 08:42:58 PDT Subject: the_dojang: RE: M.A. and Men Only Groups >>>If there are any more ideas on the "guys-only" concept that explore men's issues, PLEASE share them. I think this is an untapped area in modern martial arts training, and VERY important in today's world. Mark.Lasich>>>>>>>>> ============================================= I know quite a few men that have their men's only groups but you're correct, none of them are in martial arts but some of them are in other sports and they are from all walks of life. Some are compete in triathalons, marathons, Iron Man, swimmers, chiropractors, construction workers, and even a few couch potatoes. I just talked with one of the guys to get my info correct. He said they did meet but they didn't have a name for the group. Once a week they got together. There were about 10 of them. He said there was no pre-set agenda. What they did was come to the meeting and anyone that had something personal they wanted to talk about they would discuss it cause they felt that if it was something that someone needed to talk about that should be the priority. He said the topics went from very broad to very personal (including in-home) things going on. He enjoyed it very much. He also said his brother in another state also belongs to a group. And he told me about quite a few groups he knew of. His suggestion to any man that wants to do it, and I quote, is "Just Start One!. He's a pretty laid back kind of guy. So for what it's worth.. Would be great for the younger men too. jamaica_power@hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:48:05 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Tornadoes in OK and KS > From: > Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:11:59 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: the_dojang: OK in OK? > > Hope everyone is okay in OK. > > Ronda??? > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com > > Ditto. Two of my co-workers (one a classmate) were TDY in OKC. Al saw the storm coming and decided to drive away, something that we're told never to do. Cathy had gone shopping rather than sit in her motel room. When they each got back the motel was gone. Here in Wichita we have at least 6 dead with a lot of school closings and neighborhoods blocked off. Kerry kerry.atchinson@wichita.boeing.com ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:00:15 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #238 > From: "Bradley G. Smith" > Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:35:48 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Early Moo Duk Kwan Q's > > I had some q's to ask. Some sound nutty, but I thank you in advance for any > help I receive. Where in Seoul was the original Moo Duk Kwan gymnasium? Was > it close to a train station? Was there a name for the gymnasium itself > other than the Moo Duk Kwan? Did the Moo Duk Kwan teachers consider that > they had started the Moo Duk Kwan (+/- 1945), or did they consider it > pre-dated the end of the Japanese occupation? If so, how old did they > consider the Moo Duk Kwan/what origin date? Does anyone know some history > regarding a teacher at the Moo Duk Kwan during the 1945-1955 era whose name > was (or was close to) Song Hung Chong (possibly Soo Hung Chong)? This > person was said to specialize in or have "invented" ball-foot roundhouse > kick? My best regards, Bradley Smith Mr. Smith. I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.Yes...the original Moo Duk Kwan was located in the Seoul Railway Station. It is my understanding that this building no longer exists as it was torn down for new construction early in this decade. The Moo Duk Kwan was the creation of Hwang Kee when he was 31 years old (actually....his birthday Nov 9, was the first day of classes, 1945...so that would be POST WWII). However, the MDK didn't take hold and actually had to be restarted from scratch two more times following this. It wasn't until 1947 that the MDK was able to open and successfully retain students continuously. No one is positive as to why.....but it is believed that Mr. Hwang's HWA SOO DO as he called it...was just a mish-mash of Chinese Kung Fu he picked up in China during his travels there...and wasn't constructed in a manner they Korean people found logical. It is also often told that the art was too physically demanding. Maybe...may just be hype. WHo knows. However, having failed twice to establish a school, Master Hwang got some advice from two instructors who did have schools that were taking and keepin students. That advice was....teach more like Karate and less like Kung Fu...the Korean people don't understand the Kung Fu after forty years of being a Japanese territory (Japan held Korea as a territory from 1910 to 1945...and even prior to that...they had considerable influence over the Korean Government). So Hwang Kee began teaching the Okinawan Karate he learned from books mixed with the Chinese Kung Fu he learned in China. Yes...the Moo Duk Kwan's first gym did have a special name: Choong Ang Do Jang (Central School). I took my Cho Dan exam there....it was a rat hole. The office had a dirt...I say again....DIRT floor (and that was 1984). OK...I have to give them credit....they did a good job of keeping the Dojang proper clean. It was an old grimey building....but they did keep the dojang floor spotless (it was however...some of the ugliest tile I've ever seen...hehehe). Like I said...Choon Ang Dojang is no more. The instructor you are probably referring to (Song Hong Chong???) is probably Hong Jong Soo (and that is the correct way to write and say it....family name..last name first....first name last) and his Dan No. is 10. WHich means he is the tenth person ever ranked black belt by the Moo Duk Kwan (Mine is 24125.....I'm a bit further down on the totem pole). If this is the same Mr. Hong I knew...he owned the building that the Hwaum Dong Dojang was located in...just walking distance from the Yong San Army Base in Seoul. At one point...Hwang Kee had his personal office in this school (because it didn't have a dirt floor...it had a carpeted office..hehehe). I can remember the Grandmaster's chair and desk was roped off like a museum exhibit. When I knew Mr. Hong...he was an 8th Dan.....and when he talked....you listened. He once gave me private lessons on kicking (although at the time...I didn't have a clue who this guy was). Now...as regards this "kicking with the ball of the foot". I'd be real interested to hear where you got that story from. No...Mr. Hong didn't invent kicking with the ball of the foot. Kicking with the ball of the foot is how all OKINAWANS kick and is the PROPER way to strike with a round or front kick (it does damage to your opponent and not to you...whereas...kicking with the instep is an evolution out of sport karate...and has been adopted by TKD heavily as a safety measure for competition. This is really a recent development...and only took hold when safety foot gear was invented). I will acknowlege that Master Hong was an expert kicker...or rather...an expert on kicking and how to teach it. If anything...Master Hong was good at knowing how and when to use the instep and even the toes in a round house kick. He showed me how to use the toes like a spear hand to kick someone in the throat or the eye and this was done from a round kick position. Although....I don't recommend anyone trying this unless they have several years experience and a high level of skill using their feet (You can break your foot easily if you screw this up). I hope this helps answer your question. Now...I hope you'll answer a couple for me. What is your martial arts background, where do you train/study and where did you get your information from? This helps me to keep track of what is being currently taught by whom and where. Best Wishes John Hancock ------------------------------ From: David Steffen Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:11:07 -0600 (MDT) Subject: the_dojang: sine wave - again... > > From: "Emil J. Fisk" > Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:14:16 +0800 > Subject: the_dojang: sine wave - again... > > Hi, Howdy - this is a little late, but things have been hopping out here. ;-) [snip] > I recall being a white belt in ITF a very very long time ago. We > were taught to slide our feet in the motion of a C, by bringing the > back foot in towards the front foot, before sliding it > out. Anything to do with the sine wave? As Ray points out, no - this is the "circle step" that most Karate people use to keep their head from going up and down. When doing the sine wave, the foot moves in much more of a straight line - it curves in a little bit, but not much. BTW Ray can now attest to the fact that the sine wave is very difficult to get across via email. When he was out here a month or so back, and saw what it looks like, his response was something like "Boy, that's not at all what I had imagined". ;-) > And then, the only other thing I can think of is more related to > hapkido. Does the sine wave refer to the motion that is used to > direct throws / projections? For example, aikido practitioners move > their opponents around circles when directing them into a throw / > lock. Would this be another example of the sine wave in action in > hapkido (in throwing opponents)? Ummm... kind of. In Aikido, when you move your opponent in a circle (usually horizontal), that's not the sine wave. However, in every Aikido technique there _is_ a definite down-up-down motion you do with your _own_ center of mass - and that _is_ the sine wave. In Aikido, the sine wave accelerates your opponent's body. In (ITF) TaeKwon-Do, it accelerates your fist. ;-) BTW, they don't _call_ it the sine wave in Aikido, but it's the same principle. Now, in Hapkido, I haven't seen much of anything in the throws that looks "sine wave-ish" to me. However, there is a sine-wave thing that happens in some of their kicks. (I'm speaking here of Sin Moo Hapkido, which is Ji, Han Jae's art.) Any time you drop a shoulder into a kick, that's more-or-less a sine-wave principle. It's not nearly as obvious, though. Sine-wave kicking is a fairly subtle thing. > If not, I'm still confused as ever, and will continue to haunt this > list with my thoughts on the topic once every two or three > years. :) Well, to be honest, by far the easiest way to get a handle on the sine wave is to see it. If you're ever in Colorado, look me up! ;-) - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: David Steffen Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:14:42 -0600 (MDT) Subject: the_dojang: sine wave - again... > > From: Stan Lim > Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:47:51 -0700 > Subject: the_dojang: sine wave - again... > > >Dave and others know much more than I about sine wave, but the C > >step is not the sine wave. C step is to keep the head level. The > >sine wave makes the head/body undulate up & down a bit. > > > >Ray Terry > > Video... video... video.... > > If someone can send me a VHS video tape, I'll volunteer to digitize > it into an AVI file and post is so everyone else can see. That's not a bad thought - bug me again in about a month (after classes are out for the summer) and I'll see what I can do. Ray Terry wrote: > I should have said down/up/down above (I think). That's the cannonical motion. When you're doing a form without count, they tend to mush together a bit. (There's actually a lot of technical stuff about when techniques get to connect or not, but that's irrelevent to people not in the ITF.) > Is the lady that worked on the ITF Legacy CD still online? Laurie? > She may be willing to allow us to snip a small piece of video off > that CD (maybe the four direction punch) and post it somewhere, > perhaps on their website. Their website is linked to from > www.martialartsresource.com. The Legacy CD is excellent, by the > way. Yup - just got my tax refund, gotta order one of those. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 09:32:26 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Teenage Rage/Verbal Self-Defense-Mark >>>Rather than lashing out, getting mad or frustrated, 'block' it in such a >>>way that it does not bother you." Mark Lasich>>> ====================================================== Mark, do you teach any verbal self defense skills along with this? Say when somebody verbally lashes out at your students. How would you direct them to handle this confrontation so it doesn't escalate? Thanks. jamaica_power@hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Bradley G. Smith" Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:43:11 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Thank You/Follow-Up/Early Moo Duk Kwan Thank you for your gracious and prompt response to my most recent post. May I ask who Midnight Blue Grandmaster Hancock is and whether he corresponds on the internet? Any other contact information would be most appreciated. I hope to eventually discover the individual I mentioned in my post. Also, you mentioned a new Moo Duk Kwan in Seoul. Is there an active Moo Duk Kwan in Seoul? I have some confusion. I have been told that in Korea the former kwans have the equivalent of alumni groups or traditional societies called "whae" (eqv: "group(s)"); the one for Moo Duk Kwan would be Moo Duk Whae. I was told that in Korea the kwans are gone but top practitioners of the former kwans have these "whae" groups to honor and perpetuate the tradition of their kwan. Any thoughts regarding this or contrary information? My teacher still gives "the Pledge of the Yoo Dan Ja" to new black belts as an affiliation to the "Korea Tae Kwon Do Association (Moo Duk Kwan)" (in that manner), though I know before the WTF we affiliated with KTA and after with WTF and KTA. I have been his continuous student since 1970. My teacher and his good friend trained at the Moo Duk Kwan in the early days... I would guess in the 1950's. We are always encouraged to remember the tradition of the Moo Duk Kwan, and something recently sparked me to focus on this early history. Best regards, Bradley Smith ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Thank You/Follow-Up/Early Moo Duk Kwan > Thank you for your gracious and prompt response to my most recent post. May > I ask who Midnight Blue Grandmaster Hancock is and whether he corresponds > on the internet? Any other contact information would be most appreciated. I > hope to eventually discover the individual I mentioned in my post. As for the title, I was taking a page from Mr. Hancock and trying to be funny. Seems to work for me about as well as it works for Mr. Hancock... :) > Also, you mentioned a new Moo Duk Kwan in Seoul. Is there an active Moo Duk > Kwan in Seoul? I have some confusion. I have been told that in Korea the > former kwans have the equivalent of alumni groups or traditional societies > called "whae" (eqv: "group(s)"); the one for Moo Duk Kwan would be Moo Duk > Whae. I was told that in Korea the kwans are gone but top practitioners of > the former kwans have these "whae" groups to honor and perpetuate the > tradition of their kwan. Any thoughts regarding this or contrary > information? The Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan office/dojang is now a bit south of the Seoul City train station, a couple of subway stops. You can see pictures of it if you look thru the links at http://www.martialartsresource.com. The dojang is on the first floor, a business of some sort is on the second, and the SBD MDK headquarters (e.g. Hwang Kee's office) is on the top/third floor. > My teacher still gives "the Pledge of the Yoo Dan Ja" to new black belts as > an affiliation to the "Korea Tae Kwon Do Association (Moo Duk Kwan)" (in > that manner), though I know before the WTF we affiliated with KTA and after > with WTF and KTA. I have been his continuous student since 1970. My teacher > and his good friend trained at the Moo Duk Kwan in the early days... I > would guess in the 1950's. We are always encouraged to remember the > tradition of the Moo Duk Kwan, and something recently sparked me to focus > on this early history. Best regards, Bradley Smith The office of the Korea TKD MDK Association is completely separate. That office is located three or so subway stops from City Hall, east of it I think. Pics of it from the outside are at the above website. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: MDK starts Re start dates, in Hwang Kee's 1978 Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Volume I book (p.14) he states that the MDK was in operation 'at the end of Japanese occupation (August 15, 1945)'. In his 1995 The History of the Moo Duk kwan (p.7) he states 'The first Moo Duk Kwan school wsa opened at Yong San Ku, Seoul, Korea, on November 9, 1945'. You decide... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #239 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.