From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #261 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 14 May 1999 Vol 06 : Num 261 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #258 the_dojang: Re: USTU, orgs, not-for-profit, etc. the_dojang: Re: TMTKDO - Too Many TKD Orgs the_dojang: About the WTF by a member of the WTF the_dojang: Re: V6 #260: non-profit the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #260 the_dojang: RE: "grandmasters" Re: the_dojang: RE: "grandmasters" Re: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #260 the_dojang: politics ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~730 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:44:06 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #258 In a message dated 5/13/99 9:54:07 AM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << It's not you. Look in the back of any martial arts rag; you can buy rank from at least a dozen of 'em. Once people get smart, if they ever do, they will realize there is one NGB in America representing one IF in the world: USTU & WTF. Sorry if you have been scammed. SESilz >> I am sorry if you think that is the case ... but those organizations are mainly sport orientated if I am correct in my understanding. What about those people in the world who do not have the ability or the desire to compete at any level?? There are many organizations that are a rip off, to that I agree. But to say there is only one legitimate organization, I think you have your blinders on. I have no intention of offending anyone, but closemindedness like that is WHY there are so many other organizations out there. When one organization does not fit what a peron wants, needs, or desires .. they must find another that does. There is much much more to the Martial Arts than just tournament. WriorDragn ------------------------------ From: jberwin@sc45.rsc.raytheon.com (John Brett Erwin 972-952-3738 ERWN) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:43:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: USTU, orgs, not-for-profit, etc. >...that only WTF/USTU are officially recognized organizations. Recognized? By whom? The Olympics - big deal. That doesn't make them *THE* organization. What % of people join TKD to be an olympic champ? Of them, what % have a realistic chance to even get to the Olympics? Is it recognized by the government? So what. The Korean government gave the President/founder of ATA an award last year that is the highest, most prestigeous award *ANY* Korean living outside of Korea can receive. It's equivalent (defined by the Korean media) is a Nobel Prize! I'd say he (and/or ATA) has been recognized. A few years ago the goverment allowed a group of ATA instructors inside the (Chung Moo???) temple - the first non-Koreans *EVER* allowed inside. Regardless, whether you're in with the Olympics, recognized by the goverment or not - I don't beleive this defines the quality or sincerety of the organization. >USTU is a non-for-profit organization whose sole purpose is development of >American taekwondo. Great. But again, so what. Most organizations to try to make money so they can support a full-time staff at headquarters to maintain national and international records of membership, tournaments, black belt rankings, rank/testing records, merchandise - (their own line of uniforms, gear, weapons, clothes, etc), instructional consistancy and quality, develop production videos and books to suppliment training, development of new programs (ie: ATA sent some high ranking Masters to work with the Gracies to develop a ground fighting black belt program), etc. I can't intelligently compare organizations because I've only been in two. WTF for my first year of training, and ATA for the next 10. I'm sure the USTU is a fine organization that is well run. I really like ATA, but I know it's not perfect. But, I think it's unfair to say there's really no comparison based on volunteer employees, and a self-defined *THE* organization because it's "recognized." (Again, recognized by whom?) Finally, let me reiterate that I'm not questioning the quality of the USTU, but rather the basis of "no comparison". Respectfully, Brett Erwin Allen, TX ------------------------------ From: Paul Rogers Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:44:05 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: TMTKDO - Too Many TKD Orgs >>> Master Silz wrote: To my knowledge, every other federation out there (ATA, USTSDA, USTSDF, WTSDF, USNTF, Chung Moo Doe, Kim's Karate, ..., etc.) are corporations established with the primary purpose being the financial enrichment of its "grandmaster." [snip] I commend anyone who promotes a good martial art program, however, I stand by my comments about the USTU being THE ORGANIZATION even if it causes offense to those who choose to cling to their "grandmaster's" brand of martial art. <<< I don't believe the ATA is a federation. As I understand it, it is an association of schools which all promote the Songahm style of taekwondo, under the direction of GM Lee. It is a part of the World Traditional Taekwondo Union (WTTU, more initials 8?)), of which the Songahm Taekwondo Federation (STF) is also a part. All were founded by GM Lee, if I understand correctly. I'm not sure if the enrichment of GM Lee is the primary purpose of the ATA, although he is undoubtedly not destitute (other higher ranking ATA'ers could probably comment on this far better than I). The schools are definitely going concerns, but I view it some of the practices associated with such businesses as the tradeoff one makes for convenient locations, consistent instruction around the country, flexible hours, nice facilities, etc., etc. I may be mistaken, but I thought this thread was originally about the plethora of organizations. What's ironic is that the USTU and WTF, while the NGB and IF, respectively, of taekwondo, are themselves composed of potentially varied styles of TKD, that is, groups of groups of TKD pracititioners. So, the original poster's point seems to hold..Or am I just all mixed up about these organizations? (Wouldn't be the first time ;-) ). Paul Rogers, Round Rock, TX (ATA, and actually purty durned proud of it...) ------------------------------ From: Greg Giddins Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:49:53 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: About the WTF by a member of the WTF >It would seem, from this writer's defensive posture, (calling my ideas petty...) that it bothers them deeply that only WTF/USTU are officially recognized organizations. < Haha, Actually this writer *is* a member of the WTF. You're funny. I called your statement petty. Not your ideas. I have other words for those. (smile) >only WTF/USTU are officially recognized organizations.< They are recognized by the Olympic committee, and by eachother,and by the competitive sparring types out there, but what does that matter to a person who refuses to play the "Olympic Game"? The WTF has a fine program for training Olympic atheletes, and they SHOULD be recognized for that. And they are. But they certainly aren't THE BE ALL AND END ALL of Tae kwon Do. It would be a shame if they were. Other TKD orgs and styles have strengths in areas the WTF is very weak in. (Like an interesting sef of forms, ha ha) WTF tae kwon do is not the epitome of TKD. It is the epitome of competitve TKD. They do that very well. Nobody begrudges that. But there are people who want to study a martial art for things like "forms." Or for "street self defense". And in these things the WTF is weak. That's not to say all schools are weak in thise areas, but as a general rule WTF training is centered around perfecting ring sparring techniques. Not forms. Not self defense. That means that maybe, just maybe, the USTU isn't the ideal organization for all tae kwon do practitioners. Which kind of leads me to believe that maybe, just maybe, other organizations have a better program for some people. And other organizations gust might be "legitimate". Now, this is a fact that most in the WTF choke on their own vomit about. Because of the Olympic connection, it seems the WTF became quite arrogant about being the "best" TKD federation. And to get one of them to admit that they have weaknesses is like getting a veggitarian to eat buffalo burgers. And to try and imply that another organizations national finals competition is " not the real US Taekwondo Championship" is ridiculous. The USNTF had *its* Championship tournament. It was THEIR championship tournament. Just because it wasn't a USTU tournament doesn't make it any lesser of a tournament. They didn't say it was the USTU Championship, they were very clear about which organization it was for. That doesn't make it any less "real" of a championship tournament. And the winner is very much the Champion of the USNTF, and would kick my butt in the ring, for sure. I am not a member of the USNTF, I don't even know who they are, but I know a high ranking member of the USTU tried to undermine their credibility as a legitimate TKD organization, and that makes me ill. There are plenty of legitimate TKD orgs/feds/assns out there that aren't concerned with the WTF. They don't envy the WTF, they aren't ashamed that they aren't associated with the WTF, and they probably will never send an "athelete" to the Olympics. That doesn't make them less legitimate in any sense of the word. One of my past Grandmasters, and long time mentor, once told me: "You will never find a more ruthless cohort than the organized martial arts community" And it seems the more organized they get, the more ruthless they become. Greg Giddins ggiddins@ossinc.net Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #260: non-profit Since I practice Tang Soo Do, I find discussions of the USTU versus it's competitors to be of little more than academic interest. However, Master Silz, your post seems to imply that an entity organized under 501(c)(3) statutes (non-profit corporation) is, of necessity, morally superior to a for-profit concern. As one who has had some small experience on the board of a non-profit and has done considerable research into charitable fund-raising, I assure you, sir, that any such implication is false. In fact, the term non-profit is, in itself, a misnomer. The regulations substantially restrict the _distribution_ of profits to individuals, but the organization itself can, and should, have revenues in excess of expeditures. More to the point, there are a multitude of ways that officers and other functionaries in a charity can, and frequently do, end-run around the regulations to raid the till. In fact, it may be easier to misappropriate from such an entity, because scrutiny of the financial books is usually more lax than when several parties have a direct monetary interest in them. Remember the United Way scandal of a few years ago? This isn't to say that the USTU or any other 501(c)(3) is guilty of similar practices, just that filing a form 990 every year is no guarantee that an organization is honest or moral. >However, let us look at reality. Aside from the >competitive advantages that status holds, it is imperative to note that the > >USTU is a non-for-profit organization whose sole purpose is development of >American taekwondo. To my knowledge, every other federation out there >(ATA, >USTSDA, USTSDF, WTSDF, USNTF, Chung Moo Doe, Kim's Karate, ..., etc.) are >corporations established with the primary purpose being the financial >enrichment of its "grandmaster." Tang Soo! Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@cyberenet.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:35:45 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #260 In a message dated 5/14/99 10:07:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I think this should be either not-for-profit or non-profit. I believe that these are two different classifications under the tax laws. Do you know which the USTU is? Just curious. Ray Terry >> Dear Master Terry, The USTU holds 501 - C (3) tax exempt status as stipulated by IRS code. I'm not sure how that is translated into English, but I think you are right in saying "non-profit," or "not-for-profit." Excuse my slip. According to the USOC's charter, all NGBs are required to qualify as such, as well. SESilz ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:57:22 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: "grandmasters" > I commend anyone who promotes a good martial art program, however, I stand > by > my comments about the USTU being THE ORGANIZATION even if it causes > offense > to those who choose to cling to their "grandmaster's" brand of martial > art. > > Master S.E. Silz > The emphasis on "grandmaster" is interesting. Do I read an implication that any "real" grandmaster is affiliated with the USTU? Kerry Dan-Bo & USTU member kerry.atchinson@wichita.boeing.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: "grandmasters" > > I commend anyone who promotes a good martial art program, however, I stand > > by > > my comments about the USTU being THE ORGANIZATION even if it causes > > offense > > to those who choose to cling to their "grandmaster's" brand of martial > > art. > > > > Master S.E. Silz > > The emphasis on "grandmaster" is interesting. Do I read an implication that > any "real" grandmaster is affiliated with the USTU? No, clearly (IMHO) not. I believe what Master Silz is saying that a great many TKD Grandmasters have created their own organizations. These organizations are mostly for-profit organizations to benefit that Grandmaster. The USTU is an exception. It regularly changes leaders and is not an organization following a single Kwan or Grandmaster or single handful of Grandmasters... Does that alone make the USTU the only or best TKD organization? IMHO, no. (gotta leave room for my Terry's TKD Association & Internet Emporium opening in 2001. Visa accepted... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #260 > Dear Master Terry, Thanks, but I don't qualify for that title. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: politics Ok folks. This politics stuff seems to be heating up just a weee bit too much. Time to start tapering this one down. One last round and then off to private e-mail. Thanks. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #261 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.