From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #287 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 1 June 1999 Vol 06 : Num 287 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Sine wave motion the_dojang: Re: muyedobo tongji the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #266 the_dojang: Re: Sine wave motion the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #281/Teacher's Pet the_dojang: Blocks Are Not Hidden Nerve Strikes the_dojang: "Sine" language Re: the_dojang: Blocks Are Not Hidden Nerve Strikes the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 19:45:50 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Sine wave motion At 09:08 01/06/1999 -0700, you wrote: >No, Choi's TKD has not always had the sine-wave movement. I don't know how >long it has been since he incorporated it into ITF but it's probably >somewhere around 10 years ago. It's much longer ago. I haven't got any clear confirmation yet, and that is why I asked you guys. I know that it has been exclusively practiced in some parts of the ITF since at _least_ 1977. During early eighties, all of ITF was converted. What I am looking for, was both when Choi introduced it and when he officially declared it as the replacement for flat movements. >As for your second question...I don't think anything has been removed from >Choi's TKD - I think the sine-wave was just added. The flat movement has been altogethered removed. Practically all techniques, whether or not a movement/relocation is involved, has a distinct up-down motion in its execution. >Yes...Choi's TKD is the only that I've seen, formally, incorporate and name >a moving technique like sine-wave. If one takes any type of MA though, you >will really find that we all do the sine-wave thing naturally. Dropping your >center of gravity and then moving into an attack generates power from the >lengthening and the tightening of the muscles...if that's the correct way to >do describe it. I disagree with you. I don't know the other korean arts well, but in traditional karate, you won't even get a yellow belt if your head/shoulders dont't move in a strictly horizontal fashion. All force should come from hip thrust. You are also correct that relaxation, followed by execution with full tension and snap can feel like a wave of some kind, but it has nothing to do with Choi's sine wave which is a very distinct up-down movement of your entire body. >> 5) If anybody else has practiced both flat karate style movements and the >> sine wave movements >> of the ITF, I would be pleased to know your opinions on the weaknesses and >> strengths of >> both approaches. > >I personally do not like the sine-wave teaching. While I understand it's >practice, like I mentioned earlier...we all do it to an extent. Like I said - that must be a different concept unless korean arts have a different view on this than karate. >No one I >know punches without some type of movement to generate power. Yes, of course, but the movements come from hip thrust and the body parts directly executing the technique. If gravity is used, at least in karate, that is a grave error. >I don't like the formal method of teaching it because in some of the >movements (when doing forms) it seems quite impractical (especially in forms >like Po Eun) and a waste of time and movement. Other movements it seems to >compliment the generation of power very nicely. I agree with you that some tecniques seem to take a little longer to execute. The elegance some times has to sacrifice as well (personal opinion). However, I feel that the sine wave is very liberating and powerful. With flat movements, which I have also practiced within TKD (other school), I feel trapped in the execution. >So...that's my $0.02 worth. But to be pro-and-con here...to each his own. If >sine-wave works for you...TERRIFIC! If it doesn't...TERRIFIC!. MA is your >experience. Make of it what you will. I totally agree with you. I don't want to make this into a religious war - However, I am very interested to hear about people who have used both the sine-wave and the flat, more hip-thrust-centric style. Pros and cons. Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand Norway ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:53:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: muyedobo tongji In a message dated 5/17/99 7:37:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Does anyone know how a financially challenged Amreican would dig up a copy of the MoYei Tobo Tong Ji? >> i was working on it awhile back. since then i had to reformat my hard drive and lost some good info on it. i'll check things out again, though. remind me if i dont get back to you before you lose patience :). melinda ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:57:42 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #266 In a message dated 5/18/99 7:54:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I have noticed that my posts to the digest are often mis-formatted. They often appear on my screen like this but that was not how I typed it. >> it might help if you set your word wrap to a lower number. and i'm so far behind in my digests that this has probably already been answered ten times....yeesh :) melinda ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 20:00:32 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Sine wave motion At 09:08 01/06/1999 -0700, you wrote: >I was originally trained in ITF TaeKwonDo by Grandmaster Kang, Dong Won in >Tulsa, OK, so I am familiar with the sine wave (even though its been 20+ >years since I've actually done it). I now practice Kuk Sool Won; there is >no "sine wave" in Kuk Sool, or, to the best of my knowledge, in any Korean >martial art other than ITF TaeKwonDo. >Sincerely, >Steven Gilmore >Houston, TX, USA Thank you for answering. I have a few questions for you regarding your response. You state that it has been 20+ years since you trained sine wave. I have a testimony from a Norwegian GTF Master who joined the ITF in 1977. He reports that his master trained sine wave only at the time. Can you give me an earlier date? I am trying to find out how early this was utilized, but there seem to be little documentation on this matter. Another issue as well: you say that you were trained by a grandmaster within ITF. I thought that Choi Hong Hi was the only grandmaster within ITF ever until he promoted Ree Kee Ha and Chuck Sereff a couple of years ago. Can you elaborate on this ? Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand Norway ------------------------------ From: JBoorstein@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:00:24 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #281/Teacher's Pet It's a current problem at the dojang where I study. A long time student fancies himself the teacher's pet and has used that position to ruin any project he doesn't like or might put someone else in the teacher's pet position. He nearly wreaked an assistant instructor's program, has nothing but negative things to say about his fellow students and how well they perform techniques (especially younger students who outrank him), and other such fun activities. And yes, a chatterbox, although not an obvious one. Right now he has upset the sabumnim because pet is threatening to leave because pet is not getting the respect the pet thinks the pet deserves. Quite disruptive. Other than asking the person to leave, which I suspect most people would not want to do, I can't imagine a solution. JB ------------------------------ From: jeremyt@atfi.com Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:10:38 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Blocks Are Not Hidden Nerve Strikes I am writting in response to the belief that blocks in forms are hidden secret nerve strikes. This is stemmed from Dillman's system of knock out techniques which he claims to have learned from (I believe) Oyata. Now there are controversies surrounding this claim since the person he claims to have learned from speaks hardly any English and Dillman did not speak any Japanese. There is no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, no Tooth Fairy, and NO SECRET HIDDEN TECHNIQUES. Yes there are various ways of using your blocking techniques, but the great masters of the past did not sit there and think of secret techniques to hide in forms to bewilder future generations. If someone is stating that they know these techniques my guess is that they will charge you a $h!+ load of money to learn them. save yourself the trouble. Whatever secret technique that you are learning is being taught to others all around the world. There was a huge discussion on the TKD-net on this subject and it was derived by myself and others that these secrets do not exist. For those who hold on dear to the thought these techniques are there, please provide the scientific proof or even on very good theory on how they would work. I always keep my mind open and would be interested to see it. Jeremy WJDKF/MACS ------------------------------ From: SunBiNim@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:13:21 EDT Subject: the_dojang: "Sine" language Maybe I've been doing and teaching "Sine Wave" for years without knowing it! Could some of you ITF'ers help me find out? In Han Mu Do, we teach a "step, stop, punch" motion. The punch is actually a continuation of the momemtum generated from the step. We don't step in the "c" fashion (bringing the feet together and then out into a wide front stance) to keep from raising and lowering the body. Yes, it does create a "wave" motion. Could that be what you refer to as "sine wave?" Isn't this a similar motion to Tai Chi (Han Tae Kuek?) I can see where we use the same "wave" motion in the execution of armbars, wrist locks, and throws, too. I just never thought of it that way. Could someone "enlighten" me, or at least give me an "ahhh" rather than a "hmmm?" Steve Kincade ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Blocks Are Not Hidden Nerve Strikes > I am writting in response to the belief that blocks in forms are > hidden secret nerve strikes. This is stemmed from Dillman's system of > knock out techniques which he claims to have learned from (I believe) > Oyata. Now there are controversies surrounding this claim since the > person he claims to have learned from speaks hardly any English and > Dillman did not speak any Japanese. > > There is no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, no Tooth Fairy, and NO > SECRET HIDDEN TECHNIQUES. Yes there are various ways of using your > blocking techniques, but the great masters of the past did not sit > there and think of secret techniques to hide in forms to bewilder > future generations. You are correct, they are not hidden. They are not secret. We are talking about them here, so that are not hidden or secret. But a block is more than a block, that is a given. Dillman doesn't really enter into this, as many learned this long before we even heard of Dillman, or Clark, or Moneymaker. Many/most of the early Korean masters didn't get all that far in Japanese Karate-do rank to learn them. In other cases, Funakoshi didn't teach them to the college-aged Japanese 'kids'. So they aren't secret or hidden, it is just that many never learned them. If you can get it on inter-library loan, check out Funakoshi's first edition (in Japanese) of Ryuku Kempo, published c1921. A down block was not taught as a down 'block'. For more info, check out the tuite distribution list. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #287 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.