From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #296 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 5 June 1999 Vol 06 : Num 296 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: A different experience as a ref the_dojang: World TKD Champs results, thus far the_dojang: Master/grand master levels within WTF Re: the_dojang: Master/grand master levels within WTF the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jamaica Power Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 09:27:38 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: A different experience as a ref >>>What did you do that made you doubt yourself until today? Or are you >>>bothered by the fact that you had to ref a fight with one competitor a >>>wheel chair? Stan Lim ===================================================== Hi ya Stan... Trying to relate this story in a succinct manner; still get the story across was another concern; open it up for discussion from various viewpoints was yet another task. I wanted to represent the competitor, myself, and the wheelchair competitor in the best light. I wanted to show there were GM's and MI's there and other rings still in competition. I wanted to relate some personal feelings but not get bogged down in them cause that's not the issue. And I wanted to express the concern of the corner ref's in the scoring process. There are so many different individuals on this digest and just the normal posts that I do are a task.I wanted this one to really reflect what I was feeling at the time, although I think I fell short in this area. The awkwardness of the situation, and as someone else said the politics, morals and everything else in this package including the unexpected surprise; which when you have been center ref'ing for about 10 hours a day for 3 days in a row and other assorted bookeeping duties afterwards; new experiences like this can just momentarily set someone back. Some of the rules and regulations in place today would not have been acknowledged back then. Also, there are always "Exceptions" to the rules that are given to you while on the floor. How individuals interpret the rules is another very long story. This digest is the one place I felt I could share this story without judgment but I felt if it was a good topic for discussion because it is also a most unusual circumstance that should not be ignored, could easily happen again and perhaps would be even more an issue in our current politically correct and lawsuit slappy environment. What were my thoughts at the time as a ref? Well as I recollect I thought "What's going on here?" How far in advance did we know we would have an unusual event and why weren't the ref's informed about this situation prior to the match." And I was offended that this was dumped on me without any forewarning - for all involved so that obvious questions could be raised. The competitor had a look of surprise on his face; then you have the adult male in the wheel chair mad that we were surprised cause he's just another guy you know and should be treated as such; then you have a huge audience around the ring of GM's and MI's and other spectators watching the situation including the wheelchair person's own entourage. I was a very strong ref. (Smile) But then I'm a big mean black belt. I felt that there were better ways to handle the situation for all involved and that made me angry but I also know that in the middle of the ring that was neither the time or place to debate the issue although others might disagree. Well I could go on forever on this topic. Hope I answered your question. jamaica _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 12:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: World TKD Champs results, thus far (from the Edmonton website) 1999 World Taekwondo Championships Results (thus far) Fin-Male 1. Byeong-Seok Min - Korea 2. Roberto Cruz - Phillipines 3. July Mercedes - Dominican Republic 3. Wei Chun Chen - Chinese Taipei Fin-Female 1. Asensio Belen - Spain 2. Song-Hee Yoon - Korea 3. France Pouzoulet - France 3. Kadriye Selimogou - Turkey Fly-Male 1. Jong-Il Yoon - Korea 2. Abror Haider - Denmark 3. Younes Sekkat - Morocco 3. Nhat Thong Ho - Vietnam Fly-Female 1. Shu Ju Chi - Chinese Taipei 2. Hye-Young Shim - Korea 3. Jennifer Delgado - Spain 3. Guiru Yuan - China Bantam-Male 1. 2. 3. 3. Bantam-Female 1. 2. 3. 3. Feather-Male 1. Hyun-Goo No - Korea 2. Jesper Roesen - Denmark 3. Franciso Zas - Spain 3. Chi Hung Hsu - Chinese Taipei Feather-Female 1. Hae-Eun Kang - Korea 2. Iridia Salazar-Blanco - Mexico 3. Gael Texier - Canada 3. Sonia Reyes - Spain Light-Male 1. H. Saeibonehkohal - Iran 2. Byung-Uk Kim - Korea 3. Sergio Cardenas - Chile 3. Rosendo Alonso - Spain Light-Female 1. Hyang-Mi Cho - Korea 2. Hui Jing Zhang - China 3. Lisa O'keefe - Australia 3. Ekaterina Noskova - Russia Welter-Male 1. Jong-O Jang - Korea 2. Bahri Tanrikulu - Turkey] 3. Rodrigo Martinez Huerta - Mexico 3. Joshua Coleman - United States Welter-Female 1. Elena Benitez - Spain 2. Mirjam Muskens - Netherlands 3. Wan Chen Chang - Chinese Taipei 3. Barbara Pak - Canada Middle-Male 1. 2. 3. 3. Middle-Female 1. 2. 3. 3. Heavy-Male 1. 2. 3. 3. Heavy-Female 1. 2. 3. 3. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 21:28:01 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Master/grand master levels within WTF My background is, as some of you now know, mainly from the ITF TKD. I think they have a reasonable setup for the titles of master/grand master. The highest rank you can obtain through tests is the 7th dan. You then know all techniques, forms etc - ie complete technical mastery. You are then given the title of master. The 8th and 9th dan are honorary, and the title of grand master coincides with the highest rank - 9th dan. I think this scheme is very logical. I have however looked a little at the WTF application of these titles and am a little confused. I would like your input/answers on the following: 1) As far as I know, the highest rank you can test for in the WTF is the 9th dan. You don't master all techniques, forms etc untill then. Is this right ? 2) Is the 10th dan (which ITF don't have) the only purely honorary rank in WTF ? (I see that the WTF have several tens of 9th dans - do they have many 10th dans ?) 3) When do you become a master in WTF? I know of some 4th dans who use this title, but I have also seen someone state that the WTF now require a 5th dan in order to use this title. 4) When do you become a grand master in WTF? Almost everybody I have seen within the WTF who uses this title, is a 9th dan, but I just stumbled across a 7th dan who used the grand master title. 5) What is your opinion on using the term "Master" when mastery has not yet been achieved? One can always get better of course, but shouldn't at least all technical curriculum be passed in order to use the word "master"? Everyone is of course entitled to let the words mean whatever they want to, but in my opinion, the word "master" has a normal intended meaning in english, and having great parts of the technical curriculum left isn't what one would normally call "master". Or is it ? 6) If it is true that the WTF uses the title Grand master for people who have the 7th dan and therefore with several parts of the curriculum left, it is even worse. Maybe he isn't really recognized by the WTF as a grand master? His web pages can be found at http://www.enteract.com/~jrdonley/tkd/index.html You WTF'ers out there - please don't take this as an insult. The WTF is a very heterogeneous organization and it is very hard, especially for an outsider like me, to grasp all the details and rules. Please enlighten me. Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand Norway Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 12:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Master/grand master levels within WTF > 1) As far as I know, the highest rank you can test for in the WTF is the 9th > dan. You don't master all techniques, forms etc untill then. Is this right ? There is a poomse for a Kukkiwon 9th Dan. > 2) Is the 10th dan (which ITF don't have) the only purely honorary rank in > WTF ? > (I see that the WTF have several tens of 9th dans - do they have many 10th > dans ?) Zero 10th Dans. > 3) When do you become a master in WTF? I know of some 4th dans who use this > title, > but I have also seen someone state that the WTF now require a 5th dan in > order to use this title. 5th Dan. It might be 6th outside the US??? > 4) When do you become a grand master in WTF? Almost everybody I have seen > within > the WTF who uses this title, is a 9th dan, but I just stumbled across a 7th I believe it is 8th Dan. > 5) What is your opinion on using the term "Master" when mastery has not yet > been achieved? > One can always get better of course, but shouldn't at least all technical > curriculum be > passed in order to use the word "master"? Everyone is of course entitled to > let the words > mean whatever they want to, but in my opinion, the word "master" has a > normal intended > meaning in english, and having great parts of the technical curriculum left > isn't what one would normally call "master". Or is it ? Given the above, I don't follow. Wouldn't one think a Ph.D. is a 'master' of their discipline? Yet I doubt a single Ph.D. would claim they have nothing more to learn in said discipline. > 6) If it is true that the WTF uses the title Grand master for people who > have the 7th dan > and therefore with several parts of the curriculum left, it is even worse. Again, to my knowledge the only think left to learn is a poomse. No new techniques, theory, etc, per Kukkiwon requirements. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 12:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #296 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.