From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #297 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 5 June 1999 Vol 06 : Num 297 In this issue: the_dojang: Moo Duk Kwan relation to TKD the_dojang: ATA in the olympics ? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #296 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #296 the_dojang: Re: Breaks, demos, and food the_dojang: Dobak etiquette the_dojang: MA Politicians the_dojang: Handicapped In Sports the_dojang: Kukkiwon 10th Dans Re: the_dojang: Moo Duk Kwan relation to TKD the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 22:00:32 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Moo Duk Kwan relation to TKD One of the interesting facts about this list, is that several of you seem to be practicing Tang Soo Do. I know very little of TSD, and I am very interested in learning more about it. I have a few concerns/questions: 1) I understand that the Moo Duk Kwan is one of the major original Korean Kwans behind TSD. Frequently, Moo Duk Kwan is also associated with Tae Kwon Do. Why? 2) I just saw a school affiliated with both the Moo Duk Kwan and the WTF. Does this mean that Tang Soo Do and WTF TKD have the same basic techniques or something like that ? (This is the link: http://www.enteract.com/~jrdonley/tkd/index.html) Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 22:11:11 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: ATA in the olympics ? I was wondering: is only the WTF-affiliated TKD-schools invited to the olympics ? I know that ITF/GTF are not participating. Are the ATA participating ? Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand Norway ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 22:31:33 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #296 >> 2) Is the 10th dan (which ITF don't have) the only purely honorary rank in >> WTF ? >> (I see that the WTF have several tens of 9th dans - do they have many 10th >> dans ?) > >Zero 10th Dans. Is there such a thing as a 10th dan rank? I think the 10th dan is listed on the kukkiwon list of black belt fees on the dojang-ftp-site. Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand Norway ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 22:28:03 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #296 At 12:56 05/06/1999 -0700, you wrote: >> 5) What is your opinion on using the term "Master" when mastery has not yet >> been achieved? >> One can always get better of course, but shouldn't at least all technical >> curriculum be >> passed in order to use the word "master"? Everyone is of course entitled to >> let the words >> mean whatever they want to, but in my opinion, the word "master" has a >> normal intended >> meaning in english, and having great parts of the technical curriculum left >> isn't what one would normally call "master". Or is it ? > >Given the above, I don't follow. > >Wouldn't one think a Ph.D. is a 'master' of their discipline? Yet I doubt >a single Ph.D. would claim they have nothing more to learn in said discipline. You take a very interesting stand here, when comparing to the academic world. I am myself pursuing my PhD at this time, so the comparison is interesting. A PhD should have complete and full understanding of all current work and approaches within his field of study. That does not mean that the field won't develop further (or often much, much futher), but the day the PhD is obtained, the candidate has full mastery of the state of the art of his field. You have to remember that the field of study of a PhD is very, vey narrow. When someone is taking a PhD in history, it doesn't mean that the person knows everything about history, but it means that the particular part of the science of history that is studied, is understood as fully as possible.1 Of course, a PhD will have more to learn. He will have more to learn about his discipline as such - this is done by further research and by examining new approaches and study conducted by others after you got your PhD (to stay up to date). But at the day you get your PhD, there should not be work done in your area that you don't know about, and your work should be at such a level that it contributes to advance the state of the art of the field. I would say that a PhD is a master in the ITF sense of the word - which means that all technical curriculum is mastered. What is then a grand master? The most likely comparison should be a full professor. Both the requirements for PhD and especially the requirements for being qualified for full professorship varies from country to country and university to university. Even though personal experience and such might influence greatly the evaluation of competence, we have the following guidelines here in Norway: 1) Mastery of at least two disciplines within the field. Mastery here indicates either a PhD or other work that in total is at the level of a PhD (several published articles, etc..) 2) Teaching experience 3) Administrative experience 3) Maturity within the field - which is achieved by being a player in the field for some years after obtaining the first PhD or equivalent. However, a professor is not more of a master in a single discipline than a PhD. Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand Norway ------------------------------ From: Jamaica Power Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 13:42:04 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Breaks, demos, and food >>><< And if half-time is not about martial arts then what do you offer the >>>audience instead? >> FOOD! That is usually when we break for lunch! ===================================================== What kind of food do you have? American or Korean? Do the refs eat the same food or do you have a separate banquet and room for them? Can spectators purchase food during the tournament or only at set hours. Hot dogs, hamburgers, pizza or bar b ques or Kim Chee, Beef Bulgogi, Chapchae, or Khal Bi? Yum I remember when refs only got Korean foods at lots of tournaments and I personally loved it but then there came a new wave of refs that wanted pizza and such instead. By that time I was really eating mostly Korean food and found out that when I did have a pizza instead of the Korean food I didn't feel good the rest of the day when ref'ing. I seriously could tell a big difference. jamaica _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Jamaica Power Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 14:02:13 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Dobak etiquette As I was cruising around last night I passed by a karate school that had just gotten done. Some of the little people immediately ran to a nearby field and began playing soccer waiting for their parents to pick them up. Later I stopped at a McDonalds for some food and in the restaurant were a group of teenagers with their dobaks on. No jackets, and they were headed off to the local shopping mall (belts also in tact as with the soccer players). Do you think this is good advertising or disrespectful. Aside from that I pity their mothers and dads trying to keep those uniforms clean. Whew. Lots of Clorox II for those babies. Do you think in some places this could even invite trouble; or not? Thanks jamaica. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Dennis McHenry Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 16:45:00 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: MA Politicians << I seem to recall reading somewhere (may have been on the internet) that Bill Clinton had a Black Belt in TKD - not sure if it was earned or if it was just an "honorary Black Belt" given to him when he was Governor.......>> A few years ago I attended the Kuk Sul Won World tournament in Houston. It was during the Master's demonstration. Grandmaster In Hyuk Suh presented a Senitor (don't remember his name) with an "honorary" Black Belt. He did have him break a board first.... so I guess he "earned' it . Mac Houston, Tx ------------------------------ From: "Bradley G. Smith" Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 19:18:52 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Handicapped In Sports Dear Jamaica, Your anecdote about the wheelchair was a very fine one! I don't know much about Title 9 and Americans With Disabilities Act-related laws, but the issues are very real and everyone's school stands to benefit if there is a better understanding of how the disabilities laws affect teaching and sporting events. So I'll try to find something out and post about it. Thanks again, and the topic was very thoughtfully presented by you. Bradley Smith ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 18:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Kukkiwon 10th Dans > >> 2) Is the 10th dan (which ITF don't have) the only purely honorary rank in > >> WTF ? > >> (I see that the WTF have several tens of 9th dans - do they have many 10th > >> dans ?) > > > >Zero 10th Dans. > > Is there such a thing as a 10th dan rank? I think the 10th dan is listed on > the kukkiwon list of black belt fees on the dojang-ftp-site. Yes, it is listed in the Kukkiwon's books and has been for 20+ years. In the afternoon of October 20, 1997, another member of this forum and I visited the Kukkiwon and there met with a Kikkiwon VP in his office. One of the things I asked (he spoke excellent English) was if there were any Kukkiwon 10th Dans or if any were being considered. The answer came quickly and strongly. No, there were no Kukkiwon 10th Dans (except I really did think that Dr. Kim was an honorary 10th Dan ???) and he indicated that he never thought there would be any given his explanation of what the number 10 implys in the Korean culture and what 3 implys (and then 3x3). He did explain that they were considering an honorary award to be sparingly given out after 9th Dan, but that it would NOT be a 10th Dan. Now, I'll also say that never is a very long time... Master Holcombe Thomas was the forum member present during this meeting. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 18:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Moo Duk Kwan relation to TKD > 1) I understand that the Moo Duk Kwan is one of the major original > Korean Kwans behind TSD. Frequently, Moo Duk Kwan is also > associated with Tae Kwon Do. Why? The Moo Duk Kwan split years ago with some Dans deciding to stay with GM Hwang Kee and TSD/SBD and others deciding to go with Taekwondo. Those that split formed TKD MDK, which today is the largest of the TKD Kwan orgs. > 2) I just saw a school affiliated with both the Moo Duk Kwan and the > WTF. Does this mean that Tang Soo Do and WTF TKD have the > same basic techniques or something like that ? > (This is the link: http://www.enteract.com/~jrdonley/tkd/index.html) It means their linage goes up to Hwang Kee, but also to a Master that split off to the KTA Taekwondo side when that opportunity opened up. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 18:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #297 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.