From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #330 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 30 June 1999 Vol 06 : Num 330 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: One Year Wonders.. the_dojang: RE: Count down to Black Belt: 5 years, 4 years, 3... the_dojang: RE: One Year Wonders the_dojang: RE: An art or part of an art? the_dojang: RE: Tang Soo Do manual written by Kang Uk Lee the_dojang: Ye Olde "art" question the_dojang: Re: One Year Wonders the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #329 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #327 the_dojang: Re2: One Year Wonders the_dojang: one year wonders the_dojang: Help with a survey Re: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #329 the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ernest Hart Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 18:20:00 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: One Year Wonders.. > Not that anyone asked,,, but what do I think??? IMHO a year is too short, > but 5 years is too long (to 'black belt'). > Ray Terry I'll conditionally agree. If a student has previous experience in another style, and picks up Taekwondo very quickly, I may respond differently. OTOH, I've had people come in with rank in other styles that learn TKD more slowly than the norm, due to "growing pains". E. Hart Burlington, VT ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 17:40:48 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Count down to Black Belt: 5 years, 4 years, 3... > From: Ray Terry > Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:48:06 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: V6 #328: One year wonders > > Not that anyone asked,,, but what do I think??? IMHO a year is too > short, > but 5 years is too long (to 'black belt'). > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com > > I agree with 1 year being too short. Maybe the youthful among us can learn the techniques that quickly, but I doubt they are really "burned in". Also it seems to me there is a lot more to learn from the MA than the physical aspects, and this takes time. As for 5 years being too long, well, what's the hurry? For me 5 years was just right. I don't seem to be able to handle more than 3 TKD sessions a week without being exhausted for the next class. For whatever reason my conditioning seems to improve very slowly, yet improve it does. Our school generally likes to have a person test no more often than every 4 months, which takes you from 10th Gup to Dan-Bo in 40 months, then 1st Dan at least 6 months later. Some people are good enough or can put in enough training time to test every 2 months (our colored belt testing cycle, BBs go on a 6 month cycle ), but I and many of the over-30s that I know have ended up extending the testing interval to 6 months. That's worked well for me because I usually ramp up so hard for a test that I'm developing a lot of sore spots, and it takes a month or so after to heal. And I have to admit that I lost about 8 months of my first year battling sore knees, and 4 months of this last one due to knee surgery. OK, here's some more Jamaica-like questions: 1) How old were you when you started your MA? 2) How long did it take you to reach BB? ( or how long will it take on your current schedule ? ) 3) Do you feel that you took too long? Or maybe not long enough? 4) How much did the rest of life impact your progress? Kerry kerry.atchinson@wichita.boeing.com ------------------------------ From: Don.Hahn@phs.com Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:06:35 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: One Year Wonders >>From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #328: One year wonders Mike Rowe wrote: >In South Korea (where all schools are part of the Kukkiwon) the average >time frame to first dan is about 1 year. Can this be put into some context that makes it less ludicrous than it seems from here? Tang Soo! === Scott << Essentially it is a result of more training more hours a day. Almost everyone and their brother is a 1st dan black belt in Korea, literally. So the term black belt usually doesn't mean much. In fact, if you say you take tkd, the first question is what dan, not what color belt. ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 18:39:53 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: An art or part of an art? > ------------------------------ > > From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com > Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:35:58 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #328 > > Dear Master Ray Terry, > > I'm throwing this out to the "martial arts universe" for consideration. > > I've been involved in taekwondo for 24 years. To the best of my aging > memory, I've been a simple student, passionate disciple, recreational > competitor, international competitor, dojang receptionoist/manager, > instructor, "master," coach, referee, tournament director, dojang owner, > state association officer, NGB delegate, US Team Manager, and simple > tournament spectator. As such, while not an expert or 'big-shot,' I have > am > at least familiar with many facets of martial arts. Over the past few > years > I have been wondering: When does one become a "martial artist?" > > I'll start with the contention that a child coloring in a coloring book is > > not creating art, nor making an artistic interpretation of her world; she > is > filling in the blank spaces with crayon. She indeed is learning some > skills > (and having fun) while she colors, but I don't think even an overly proud > parent would go so far as to call it "art." > > When I practice a poomse (form/pattern) I feel I am doing pretty much the > same as the child who colors. Each move is preordained (in action and > meaning) by the original author of the form. > > When I spar, however, I am truly free to respond to the challenges of the > situation in my own way, and in a spontaneous manner. While it is true > that > many movements that may 'come out' are practiced beforehand, the > application > is new in that moment. This feels much more like what I believe the word > "art" to mean and imply. The rest of what I do (and most those I have > observed do as well) such as stretching, breathing exercises, striking > drills, poomse, push-ups, bag work, running, meditation, etc., feels more > like coloring in a coloring book, or perhaps cooking from a recipe book > -- > good, solid preparatory training, but hardly "true art." > > It may be, then, that until one is actually fighting (or perhaps > developing > "creative poomse") one is not actually doing "martial art," but merely > preparation; equivalent of coloring in a coloring book. > > I wished to share these thoughts with your readers, Ray, and welcome the > thoughts of others. > > Sincerely, > SESilz > > Gotta disagree. I think you've separated components of the art that really shouldn't be. The art is comprised of all of these... free sparring, agility and technique drills, poomse, 1 & 3 step sparring, bag work, and more. It's the gestalt that makes an art, not the personal spontaneity practised in one aspect of it (or in my case the personal randomness). I personally feel much the same way about poomse, but that's because that is my preferred aspect of TKD. Many people disagree, but I feel an artistic expression of the intensity and technique (maybe even ferocity on a really inspired day) from within myself in the performance of forms despite the fact that they are "pre-ordained". Is it perhaps that sparring is what you really enjoy, and you feel a culmination of your "art" when you do it? I think the whole is an art, and the individual can find expression through many aspects of it, whether it's sparring, poomse, instructing, or leading a group of colored belts through their belt test. IMHO, of course... Kerry ------------------------------ From: "John Franich" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:57:11 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Tang Soo Do manual written by Kang Uk Lee Chris Callahan asked about a book containing: 1. Pyung Ahn forms 2. Chulgi forms 3. Baisi forms World Tang Soo Do Association Grandmaster Jae Chul Shin has a series of books collectively titled "Traditional Tang Soo Do". Volume II contains the Pyung Ahn and Basai forms. You can order his books at the World Tang Soo Do Association website: http://www.worldtangsoodo.com John Franich ------------------------------ From: Greg Giddins Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 19:34:48 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Ye Olde "art" question >When I practice a poomse (form/pattern) I feel I am doing pretty much the same as the child who colors. Each move is preordained (in action and meaning) by the original author of the form. ...When I spar, however, I am truly free to respond to the challenges of the situation in my own way, and in a spontaneous manner....This feels much more like what I believe the word "art" to mean and imply. ...stretching, breathing exercises, striking drills, poomse, push-ups, bag work, running, meditation, etc., feels more like coloring in a coloring book, or perhaps cooking from a recipe book -- good, solid preparatory training, but hardly "true art."...It may be, then, that until one is actually fighting (or perhaps developing "creative poomse") one is not actually doing "martial art,"< Ah Healthy topic here, for sure! First off, I followed the jist of the post and was very agreeable up to the end. I am interpreting the implicaton that a person performing hyung is not performing "art" on the basis of the fact that the movements are not "spontaneous", but rather "prearranged". The fact that the practitioner is "constrained" by the limits set by the the "original author of the form" labels hyung practice as *not-artful*. And because sparring is spontaneous it is closer to a *true form of art* (which since the beginning of organized society has yet to be defined). To this I ask: Is a ballerina not an artist because she is not creating her dance spontaeously, but rather following a very strict coreography? These dances are just as "preordained" as a hyung (form) but no-one would question whether or not a graceful ballerina going through her movements with grace, speed, power, and heart is an "artist". Would that premise of "prearrangement" make only expressive modern dance an artform? How about figure skating? Predetermination shouldn't exclude an action from being considered artistic. I _also_ have rarely seen a Martial Artist perform their hyung in such a way as to be called "art", but I HAVE seen it done. Possibly a person would think hyung practice was not artistic because they have never seen an artist perform a hyung! I certainly cannot dispute the fact that "art" can take the form of free sparring, I have (a few times in my life) at times seen certain martial artists free spar with so much "artful quality" that I literally held my breath watching them stalk, spin, and kick, and sweep, trap, lock, and close, merge into their opponent, release and then dance away, leaving their opponent just as awe-struck as we spectators. (of course they are the exception, oafs like me are the rule, I have noticed) But here I speak of "free sparring" as opposed to "competition sparring." Is not limiting striking areas and techniques *in fact* forcing competitors to "color between the lines"? Saying a person can only strike the sides of the head, and areas of the torso etc., indeed seems to limit the expressiveness of the martial artist, not to mention outlawing sweeps, takedowns, traps and locks, low strikes, pushes, etc. etc. ! I have never seen a point sparring match that I would have mistaken for artful expression, but I must apply my own crude thinking here "Maybe I have never seen an artist "compeition sparring"". That is not to say I havent seen FANTASTIC competitors! Juan Moreno is an incredible athelete, watching him is humbling indeed, I would hate to have to spar against him!!!!! And many of the other top-notch atheletes are awesome to watch as well. But, personally, I don't see "art" in their expression, rather incredible skill at "coloring between the lines". Unfortunately, this opens up the "subjective" conversation. True artistic expression can probably be reached regardless of the methodology of the artist. As the saying goes "One mans artistic creation is another mans lunch." Okay, I made that up, but it seems appropriate. A master chef can create the most wonderful spread of food, but just because it is eaten by a voracious, uncultured lumberjack doesn't make it less of a work of art. Art doesn't have to be recognized by the masses in order to be Art. It also does't have to be unduplicatable. That master chef's meal can be re-produced in exactly the same form ten years later, and it will be just as wonderful a work of art, even if made by a different chef! Art defines itself to the individual. Defining the qualities of a physical artform is a topic that should always be approached with an open mind, true understanding of the physical artform itself, and a grain of salt. Speaking as a recovering Fine Arts major turned Philosohy major, this argument is stimulating conversation indeed, but will usually dredge up more feelings of resentment and intolerance than true understanding. So beware! And if you feel compelled to throw your 2 cents worth in be prepared for opposition, as this subject is purely subjective. Sorry for rambling.... Hey... anyone still awake? Anyone? > Greg Giddins ggiddins@corp.webb.net (sorry, can't find a new witty signature quote, maybe next week....) ------------------------------ From: Steven Gilmore Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:06:11 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: One Year Wonders >Not that anyone asked,,, but what do I think??? IMHO a year is too short, >but 5 years is too long (to 'black belt'). Hmm. OK, in TaeKwonDo, I'll agree. But in other martial arts with a... "deeper" curriculum (HapKiDo, KukSoolWon, HwaRangDo, KumDo), five years is probably a bit on the high side, but not too far. Sincerely, Steven Gilmore Houston, TX, USA ------------------------------ From: d g Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:26:54 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #329 >Hello all, > I have to do a bunch of exercises to strengthen my > back and wear a back brace whenever I do physical stuff. > Anybody have any experience with this? any advice? this kinda sucks to hear > when I am within months of my black belt test. I mean, I will deal with it, > but I guess I will never be a champion kicker, will have to focus on hand > skills from now on. > Aaron Harmon Aaron and Ray. Have you ever seen a chiropractor for this problem? A few yrs back I too had a mild version and a chiropractor fixed it. I hadn't had a problems since as far as scoliosis. Donna - -- just don't ANNOY the crazy person ------------------------------ From: tokay@netwurx.net Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:09:46 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #327 Donna wrote . I know wtf schools shoots first dan out very quickly like > within a year or two where in my federation it takes four to six years to > reach > first dan. Kerry replied... >Not the WTF schools I know about. The young studs and studettes may go a >little more quickly, but I've seen 4 - 5 years as typical, depending of >course on how much you can train and how your body holds up. > >Kerry Me neither. Ours is about 3-4 years, unless someone had previous training. Sandy - -- tokay@netwurx.net http://www.netwurx.net/~tokay ICQ 39586040 ------------------------------ From: "Jon David Payne" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:42:11 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re2: One Year Wonders When I talked to my Master back in Nov 98 after not hearing from him for about 10 years he was amazed I had never tested for 1st Dan. When I was 16, I was a 4th Gup at his school and moved across the state and tested for 3rd Gup in another school/system. In 1988, I joined the Air Force was mostly uninvolved in formal training except a 6 month stint in Kajukembo and recently a 1 year stint in Combat Hapkido (my instructor moved). Any way, I called my 1st instructor to see how he was and he asked about my Dan level. I told him I never earned a black belt and he said, "Really, I'll submit you to the Kukkiwon". I saw him in Louisiana while attending a military school in TX and sure enough he awarded me my 1st Dan in Jan 99. He's currently an 8th Dan/Kukki-Tae Kwon Do/7th Dan Hapkido and Korean born. I realize this might rub some the wrong way, but that's how I got my 1st Dan. Oh, when I trained with him in the 80's we practiced the ITF Hyungs/Chang Hon Tuls and now he teaches the Taegueks. Sorry this is so drawn out, I'm off to practice Taeguek Il Chang. Jon David Payne ------------------------------ From: "Emil J. Fisk" Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:39:20 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: one year wonders As Mike Rowe pointed out, I believe that it is the norm for Koreans and Japanese to attain their blackbelts within a year. This has nothing to do with students picking the art up in school, as even those going to commercial dojangs will be able to get their blackbelts quickly. I spent a year in Korea, and noticed that the examinations were once every 1.5 or 2 months, unlike the 3-4 months that probably most people are used to. However, I also spent every single weekday in training in Korea, and that was for a little less than two hours a day. That adds up to a lot more time than a lot of my friends in the West spend training in a week. The classes were usually small, being less than 15 people, so a lot of personal attention would be given by the instructor. It was common to find 9 to 13 year olds holding 2nd dans (juniors). But I just had to keep in mind that although these kids could do a lot of fancy kicks and all the poomse, their technical and philosophical understanding of the art would be a lot different than that of an adult. Practical self-defense is also a concept unknown to them until they mature. But the basics in TKD are quite easy to learn, and Koreans don't think as a blackbelt holder as being an expert in the art. Holding and training as a blackbelt just shows that you're a mature and serious student who knows the basics. The blackbelt level is where you learn to apply those basics and really start learning all the fun. Likewise I had friends going to Japan and receiving their blackbelts in iaido in under a year. Someone pointed out that Joe Lewis got his dan rank in 9 months - I thought it was only 6 months! In conclusion, a blackbelt does not mean you're an expert. You have only reached a certain amount of proficiency in fundamentals of the art. Now, as for those little kiddys I was talking about. I saw 10 year old junior blackbelts who thought they deserved the respect of 30 year old green belts. I will always show respect to someone older than myself, no matter if they are whitebelts. What would you do if you saw a young student in your class being disrespectful to an elderly gentleman/woman? Sincerely, Emil Fisk fiskej@pd.jaring.my ------------------------------ From: Stan Lim Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 18:40:40 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Help with a survey Hello friends, I apologize as this is not directly martial arts related, and if you are reading this, then I am thankful to Mr. Terry for allowing this post. If you have a few minutes to spare, please check out a survey I am doing for some personal market research: http://www.employees.org/~slim/survey/survey.html If you spot any errors, have suggestions or comments, please do not hesitate to e-mail me. Kamsa Hamnida. Stan Lim slim@employees.org ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 21:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #329 > Aaron and Ray. Have you ever seen a chiropractor for this problem? A few yrs back I > too had a mild version and a chiropractor fixed it. I hadn't had a problems since > as far as scoliosis. Donna Yes, I've seen several Chiropractors, for various problems. But I don't think they, or any doctor, can do much for scoliosis save wearing a back brace when you're young. ??? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 21:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #330 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.