From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #332 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 30 June 1999 Vol 06 : Num 332 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Jamacia Like Questions the_dojang: Re: V6 #329: scoliosis the_dojang: Re: One Year Wonders the_dojang: respect the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #330 the_dojang: RE: Oafs the_dojang: RE: One Year Wonder the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #331 the_dojang: Re: V6 #331: One year wonders the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #330 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #331 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #331 the_dojang: Re: Kerry`s questions the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #328 the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MRowe@ids.sitel.net Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:36:31 GMT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Jamacia Like Questions Kerry writes: <> I was 12 years old when I began my combative training. I started with Pang Gai Noon Ryu Karate and Wrestling. <<2) How long did it take you to reach BB? ( or how long will it take on your current schedule ? )>> The System of Pang Gai Noon Ryu (at the time I studied) did not award Shodan until 18 (5years of study) Normally takes about 4 years. 1st Dan Taekwondo (Yong Chin Pak) - 2 Years 1st Dan Hapkido (Suk Ki Shin) - 4 Years <<3) Do you feel that you took too long? Or maybe not long enough?>> I think in all arts 1st Dan can be aquired within 3 years. After that it takes a while to develop based on individual effort. <<4) How much did the rest of life impact your progress?>> I have always trained at least 2 hours per day. My progress is determined by my Instructors not my life. Mike Rowe ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #329: scoliosis Aaron Harmon wrote: >Anybody have any experience with this? I don't know the degree or cause of your scoliosis, and I would never contradict the advice of a medical doctor to his patient for a specific ailment. That said, my son was diagnosed with a slight scoliosis when he was 11. After 3 years of Tang Soo Do training, it had disappeared. 2 years after he stopped training, it has returned. Is this conclusive? No. Is it suggestive? IMHO, yes. You might want to get a second opinion on the restrictions your doctor has imposed on you. Tang Soo! === Scott ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:14:09 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: One Year Wonders >From: MRowe@ids.sitel.net >Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:27:11 GMT >Subject: the_dojang: Re: One Year Wonders > >Me: <average >time frame to first dan is about 1 year.>> > >Anders: <regular >schools for some time already? Here in the west, we start from scratch >when entering a dojang.>> > >You start from scratch when you enter a dojang? Why. The student has been >studying Taekwondo for ? many years and you expect them to start as a white >belt just because they are no longer in a school but have decided to enter >you dojang (mind you the forms are still the same). That is BULL! > >Mike Rowe I didn't get what you tried to say here. My point was that when they start out in a dojang in south korea, it is my impression that they often have been trained in tkd for some time already. Through parents, relatives and the public school system. Here in the west, we don't do that. That was my initial point - what on earth was yours ? Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand ------------------------------ From: No1IDIC@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:32:10 EDT Subject: the_dojang: respect << Now, as for those little kiddys I was talking about. I saw 10 year old junior blackbelts who thought they deserved the respect of 30 year old green belts. I will always show respect to someone older than myself, no matter if they are whitebelts. What would you do if you saw a young student in your class being disrespectful to an elderly gentleman/woman? Sincerely, Emil Fisk >> this seems to be a grey area in practice yet black and white in theory. Absolutely our elders deserve to be spoken to respectfully, even the mean ones :) it is my understanding that age is very important in Korean culture so I treat age as the Ultimate rank. I defer to older people in dojang same as to those outside of the dojang. For me, the questions becomes more complex. What do you do when you have these pre-teens & teens as black belts? It seems logical that some "teaching" would be necessary once you become a black belt. After all, if we establish that bb means we have a minimum proficiency in the basics and we are headed for the more intense and fun stuff then teaching is naturally part of the "new" curriculum to work for. What I have seen, only twice, is that the older student of lower rank is not giving proper respect to the younger but more experienced student who is trying to teach them a form or help them tweak it. How do you all handle that? After all, should the owner/master create an environment of mutual respect so that all bb are given their due respect regardless of age? Dawne ------------------------------ From: "Aaron Harmon" Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:29:56 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #330 1) How old were you when you started your MA? 15 (27 for KMA) 2) How long did it take you to reach BB? ( or how long will it take on your current schedule ? ) I should test in 5 months barring injuries (oww my back) so about 3 years, but I did Danzan-ryu Jujutsu before this and so I picked up many of the techniques quickly. 3) Do you feel that you took too long? Or maybe not long enough? No I think it is a good length of time. 4) How much did the rest of life impact your progress? Well, with the acting I do I sometimes will miss 3-4 weeks of classes at a time. and that causes problems, but other than that , not too much of an impact. ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:16:50 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Oafs > ------------------------------ > > From: Greg Giddins > Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 19:34:48 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Ye Olde "art" question > > I literally held my > breath watching them stalk, spin, and kick, and sweep, trap, lock, and > close, merge into their opponent, release and then dance away, leaving > their opponent just as awe-struck as we spectators. (of course they are > the > exception, oafs like me are the rule, I have noticed) > ( Roaring guffaw accompanied by a deep feeling of kinship from a fellow oaf... ) Art defines itself to the individual. Excellent point. Kerry ------------------------------ From: Don.Hahn@phs.com Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:50:41 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: One Year Wonder >>From: Steven Gilmore Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:06:11 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: One Year Wonders >Not that anyone asked,,, but what do I think??? IMHO a year is too short, >but 5 years is too long (to 'black belt'). Hmm. OK, in TaeKwonDo, I'll agree. But in other martial arts with a... "deeper" curriculum (HapKiDo, KukSoolWon, HwaRangDo, KumDo), five years is probably a bit on the high side, but not too far. Sincerely, Steven Gilmore Houston, TX, USA << In HKD, with the amount of techniques taught to 1st dan, it takes close to three years to learn all techniques to 1st dan. This is assuming one trains 3x per week, no vacations, for ~ 3 years. ------------------------------ From: No1IDIC@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:24:22 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #331 Ray, << My thoughts... When does one become a martial artist? When they are able to use what they've been practicing to defend themselves. Whether in a sparring situation or in a street situation. >> While I mostly agree with your position I can't help wonder about the martial artist who may lose the use of a limb or become paralyzed. Does that individual stop being a m.a.? I don't think so. I think it is more a state of mind/attitude first and then the physical. Dawne ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #331: One year wonders >Males will all join the ROK = >army or another public order service if they are unfit for the army and = >will be forced to study TKD in a brutal concentration camp style. I have = >only met 1 Korean man who was allowed a pass from this study. Their = >training is a nightmare and it produces fighters who have no idea what = >unarmed combat entails. So, to clarify, those who already have their BB civilian-style are spared this kind of training in the armed forces? Tang Soo! === Scott ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:05:53 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #330 In a message dated 6/29/99 9:59:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << So beware! And if you feel compelled to throw your 2 cents worth in be prepared for opposition, as this subject is purely subjective. >> That's why I threw it in, sir. Aside from hearing opinions as erudite as yours, I wanted someone to convince me that sparring was not the ultimate synthesis of what we do. SESilz ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:12:28 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #331 In a message dated 6/30/99 7:12:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << My thoughts... When does one become a martial artist? When they are able to use what they've been practicing to defend themselves. Whether in a sparring situation or in a street situation. >> Dear Ray, I'm glad you added that last sentence, otherwise I'd have to go out and get in trouble just to see if I have made it yet : ) SESilz ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:15:32 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #331 In a message dated 6/30/99 7:12:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << You start from scratch when you enter a dojang? Why. The student has been studying Taekwondo for ? many years and you expect them to start as a white belt just because they are no longer in a school but have decided to enter you dojang (mind you the forms are still the same). That is BULL! >> Well all I can say, Mike, is one man's BULL is another man's lunch! SESilz ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:38:13 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kerry`s questions Hi Kerry, > OK, here's some more Jamaica-like questions: > > 1) How old were you when you started your MA? I was 14. That time, there were not so many kids taking martial arts. Nowadays, the average beginners` age in my school is 10. > > 2) How long did it take you to reach BB? ( or how long will it take on your > current schedule ? ) It took me nine years to get my 1st Dan (WTF). This autumn, three of my students will test for their 1st Dan/Poom. They have been training from 3,5 to 5 years. I feel this is just enough. > > 3) Do you feel that you took too long? Or maybe not long enough? I started in a WTF school and it took me 3 years to get to 6th Kup (and I took all the exams - that time, it was a norm). Then my school was closed and I joined an ITF school. I had to start as a white belt again. It took me another two years to get to 4th Kup (again, all the exams taken and passed). Then, the club stopped organising gradings, so I was a 4th Kup for three more years. Then, I rejoined the WTF and they accepted my grade, so I was able to test for red belt and later for black belt. Was it too long? Well, it can be annoying to wear blue belt for three years... But I don`t really regret it. When I finally got my black belt I felt I really deserved it. > 4) How much did the rest of life impact your progress? That time, I had plenty of time to train. There was really no conflict between my private life and TKD. I really wish I had so much time to train now... Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:44:52 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #328 > "McDojangs" exist in many (most? all?) organizations unless the > people in charge keep things tight. > Dave Steffen Mr Steffen, it was one of the best texts on this subject I ever saw. Short and clear. I should learn to write like this... BTW: we are WTF affiliated and this autumn, the first three students will test for 1st Dan/Poom. Two of them have been training for 5 years and one for 3,5. In our school, it also takes ca. 4-5 years to be able to test for 1st Dan. I also feel it`s not the affiliation that matters, but the school itself. > From: "A. Boyd" >How do you balance the desire to teach with the necessities of life? Hard to do! There is only a handful of people around here who make a living out of TKD. We have mainly part-time instructors teaching here, many of them for free or for minimal payment. There are also some people divorced because they coudn`t really find a balance between martial arts and they private life. But until you REALLY have the desire to teach (not only to make money out of teaching) AND if you have somebody by your side who can really understand your passion, everything is possible. >Did you >plan to be an instructor from early in your training or did you wake up one >morning and realize you had more degrees than limbs and perhaps you should >share something before you were buried under the weight of ancient lore? In my case, it was my instructor who suggested me to start teaching. I wasn`t ever a blackbelt at the time. Right now, I don`t really think I was ready then, but I did it. One year later, I started my own school. Shortly after that, I was expelled from the organisation for political reasons (or to be more precise - I don`t really know for what until today), so I got another kick: I wanted to prove them I can really achieve something without them. And from the very first moment in my school... I really enjoyed it! It was simply a big fun, and I went for it 100 %. It was the only possible way, because there were several strong MA schools then in my hometown. Our school just HAD to be better. >Has your attitude toward teaching as a career changed since you began? Not really. I still enjoy it very much ;) I also had luck in meeting some of the most dedicated (not really gifted) students I could dream of. They helped me a great deal. The training methods and so on - yes, they change. I still learn, I try to incorporate better ways of teaching. There is still so much to acquire in MA. >Have you moved from smelly gym basements where you taught for free (or cost) >to spacious 'training centers' carrying your name? Have you done the reverse >(shaven head optional)? No, mainly for financial reasons. It is my dream to have a full-time dojang, but not many schools have one in Poland. Also my hometown is quite small. Right now we concentrate on opening branches. But in the future.. who knows? >Are their significant differences between running a school in the >USA, Canada or Europe... or anywhere else for that matter? I think so... For example, in my country you usually earn 200 US$ per month, and you still have to pay 100 US$ for Kukkiwon Dan certification or 30-40 US$ for a dobok. We charge between 3,5 - 6,5 US$ monthly fee and there are still some people who can`t afford it, so we teach them for free. > For those of you who teach in dank dungeons on campus or in community >centers and make your living elsewhere, what obstacles do you face from your >host or facility co-ordinator? I could really write a book here... There are still so many people thinking that Taekwondo is something for thugs attacking ordinary citizens on the streets, or in best case - something that could cause one more small trouble at school, so it should stay outside of it (for some, it is always easier to see one small problem than many good things). For example I once managed to rent a gym in a local elementary school after several visits to its principal, one at the Mayor`s office and one at the Municipal Police, and I was already going to write a report to the local newspaper. I was sure they finally rented me the gym just wanting me to leave them alone... But OTOH, there are many schools` principals helping in any possible way. It really boils down to the personality. Best regards to all you Digesters - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #332 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. 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