From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #333 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 30 June 1999 Vol 06 : Num 333 In this issue: the_dojang: clarification the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #332 the_dojang: Re: What makes a martial artist? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #330 the_dojang: The path less travelled... the_dojang: Survey the_dojang: ROK Training the_dojang: How old were you when you started your MA? the_dojang: Dojangs in NE PA the_dojang: Re: signature quote the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: No1IDIC@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:07:42 EDT Subject: the_dojang: clarification Me: <> Anders: <> You start from scratch when you enter a dojang? Why. The student has been studying Taekwondo for ? many years and you expect them to start as a white belt just because they are no longer in a school but have decided to enter you dojang (mind you the forms are still the same). That is BULL! Mike Rowe Mike, Either you or I have misunderstood Anders' question. When I read it I thought that Anders wondered if Korean kids traditionally have TKD in "regular" school meaning Kindergarten through high school . Anders what did you mean exactly? Its really easy to think that Asian kids get a lot of instruction in home and in school growing up. Even though I have found most people I know do learn from their family or at the very least have a lot of exposure growing up, some start from scratch too when they enter the dojang. Dawne ------------------------------ From: "Aaron Harmon" Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:23:27 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #332 >. You might want to get a second opinion on >the restrictions your doctor has imposed on you. >Tang Soo! >=== >Scott The main reason that he said no high kicks was this: I am sure you have seen people who will do a high front kick and try to curve their back so that the kick gets a little more height from the tilting of the hips. If I work on my flexibility more, then I should not have to tuck my hips forward and therefore avoid the problem. I found out that even though I can touch my knee to my nose (almost) when doing a stretch, that a lot of that really comes from bending my back (shame on me) if I lie on the ground on my back and have a partner lift my leg up toward my nose, I am suddenly not as flexible as I thought! ------------------------------ From: dbuehrer@denver.carl.org Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:25:53 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: What makes a martial artist? SESilz wrote: \ Over the past few years I have been wondering: When does one become a \ "martial artist?" \ \ I'll start with the contention that a child coloring in a coloring book \ is not creating art, nor making an artistic interpretation of her world; \ she is filling in the blank spaces with crayon. She indeed is learning \ some skills (and having fun) while she colors, but I don't think even an \ overly proud parent would go so far as to call it "art." \ \ When I practice a poomse (form/pattern) I feel I am doing pretty much the \ same as the child who colors. Each move is preordained (in action and \ meaning) by the original author of the form. \ \ When I spar, however, I am truly free to respond to the challenges of the \ situation in my own way, and in a spontaneous manner. While it is true \ that many movements that may 'come out' are practiced beforehand, the \ application is new in that moment. This feels much more like what I \ believe the word \ "art" to mean and imply. The rest of what I do (and most those I have \ observed do as well) such as stretching, breathing exercises, striking \ drills, poomse, push-ups, bag work, running, meditation, etc., feels more \ like coloring in a coloring book, or perhaps cooking from a recipe book \ -- good, solid preparatory training, but hardly "true art." \ \ It may be, then, that until one is actually fighting (or perhaps \ developing "creative poomse") one is not actually doing "martial art," \ but merely preparation; equivalent of coloring in a coloring book. \ \ I wished to share these thoughts with your readers, Ray, and welcome the \ thoughts of others. IMHO, it depends on your definition of "martial art". If you compare the martial arts to other forms of art (paintings, sculpture, carvings, music, dance, etc) then I would say that a person is a martial "artist" when they practice and perform their chosen martial art with passion and emotion. Also IMHO, a child filling in the lines with crayon can be as much an artist as someone who has their art on display in the finest gallaries, maybe more so because a child's emotions are unfettered and one can look at a child's crayon coloring and know, for example, that they really were into the color blue that day :) I've also seen fellow students and instructors who, while not technically perfect, attend class with focus and passion. I've also encountered people who are gifted athletes and technically perfect, yet they lacked passion. IMHO, when you find passion in your art, you become an artist. You may not be a good artist ;), but you're an artist nonetheless. As to what makes a martial artist, I feel that anyone that practices the martial arts with conviction is a martial artist. Just my two cents. - -David Buehrer - -- Supervisor, Database Preparation The UnCover Company mailto:dbuehrer@denver.carl.org - -- "My assistant, Bob the dinasaur, will now demonstrate how to give a cat a 'fur wedgie.'" ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:36:24 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #330 In a message dated 6/29/99 10:01:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Now, as for those little kiddys I was talking about. I saw 10 year old junior blackbelts who thought they deserved the respect of 30 year old green belts. I will always show respect to someone older than myself, no matter if they are whitebelts. What would you do if you saw a young student in your class being disrespectful to an elderly gentleman/woman? >> They would be taken aside and told that that is unacceptable behavior ... if done again ... then push-ups and a talking again ... if done again ... then time for a chat with family and maybe some time at home to think about what they have done and a letter of apology to come back in. Someone as high as a Jr. Black Belt attempting to lord it over adults should not be tolerated. I know in our school it isn't tolerated. Illona ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:50:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: The path less travelled... > From: "A. Boyd" > Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 23:54:12 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: the_dojang: The path less travelled... > How do you balance the desire to teach with the necessities of life? ... > If you are the head instructor of a school, how did you get to that position? I planned to teach from early into my training. A couple of years into it, I had my first experience with teaching by being the highest rank present during a Saturday workout at Iowa State. Our workouts were held in the wrestling room, Master Pak had organized ones in the evenings; on Saturday mornings he would not be there but the room was open to us. I liked it. It made me really examine what I was doing and WHY things work and don't work, improved my techniques, improved my public speaking and confidence, it's an ego booster, and I found I really liked the feeling when I could see the light go on in someone's eyes when they 'got it'. I then taught occasionally under Master Pak until graduating, and then under Master Yon Sun Kim while continuing MA training, learning teaching skills and approaches from them and others and planning what I would eventually want to do in my own school. After about 8 years I felt ready and started looking for a place to teach from, checking into community centers and the like. I wanted it to be break-even or a little better -- always as an avocation rather than a necessity for making a living. At this point I had no mats, and between that and the prevalance of existing MA in the places I checked nothing happened for another couple years. Eventually though a friend of mine was talking with the owners of a gym in his neighborhood and found they wanted to put some martial arts classes there and he put us in contact. Shortly prior to this I had split with Master Kim over various frustrations and philosophical differences that over 5 years had built up enough that it was better to go our separate ways. And my friend had some mats. So I finally began Beck Martial Arts without help from an existing school and some 8 years or so after I started thinking about it and preparing a syllabus. ... > Have you moved from smelly gym basements where you taught > for free (or cost) to spacious 'training centers' carrying your name? Have > you done the reverse (shaven head optional)? ... > For those of you who teach in dank dungeons on campus or in community centers > and make > your living elsewhere, what obstacles do you face from your host or facility > co-ordinator? My first location WAS a smelly gym. There were a number of obstacles. They scheduled other classes at the same times. Particularly bad was a country music aerobics class. Pretty hard for a 6-year old to concentrate at any time, let alone with the music blaring. They got some new equipment in the main area and shunted me off into a side room that had substandard lighting, air conditioning, and wiring, plus just a concrete floor. With my mats it was ok but you had to be careful to stay on them. They were always pushing me to get people into their contracts and payroll deductions. There was no display area for me. They couldn't stop people from messing with my equipment. Training times were very limited. And the rent was onerous. I went way into the red during this period. My second and third locations were dance studios; much better situations. But there was no carryover between their students and mine -- no walk-by or drive by -- no one knew was there. Scheduling times was still difficult; particularly private lessons. This worked ok for my purposes; I got to break-even and a little bit beyond. But in each case the dance studio I was renting space from (month to month) went out of business because someone else bought the building and I had just a few weeks to find a new place! When I got my own storefront, suddenly some new obstacles popped up. BIG deposits for utilities, MUCH higher for businesses than residences. Town business permits, signs, cleaning upkeep, property taxes, a lot more expenses and bookkeeping. Taxes especially became very difficult to figure out. The rental lease is good in that they can't kick me out, bad in that if I lose all my students tomorrow I'm still liable for rent every month. My goals with it have always been to teach what I want the way I want and make enough to break even and pay for my own additional training. I'm doing that. But there are an awful lot of challenges; and I can understand why people go to contracts, 'black belt clubs' for colored ranks, and other business practices I don't agree with or compromises I don't want to make. There's a lot more involved than just having the skils and the desire to teach. David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com WATT Lead Engineer Alcatel USA 1000 Coit Road Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:18:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Survey 1) How old were you when you started your MA? 18 for HKD, 21 for TKD, 28 for Modern Arnis. 2) How long did it take you to reach BB ( or how long will it take on your current schedule ? ) ~ 4.5 years for HKD ~ 3 years for TKD ~ 8 for Modern Arnis (shortly, will test in another couple months) 3) Do you feel that you took too long? Or maybe not long enough? The time involved for each has felt right for me. With TKD I was doing HKD as well. With arnis I was doing both HKD and TKD. I think it depends so much on the individual and what the school's requirements are that there is no generally applicable guideline, but if someone goes to black within 2 years I do tend to wonder about them. 4) How much did the rest of life impact your progress? A lot. In HKD I had 1.5 years with co-op terms in which I could not train with partners, plus an injury that limited what I could do for ~ 2 months. For arnis it has been years of off and on training, where I could usually make a once/year training camp, sometimes do some private lessons and/or seminars, but rarely train with others on a regular basis. I could have but did not test a number of times because I did not feel I'd practiced enough on all the underlying skills. I knew the test material itself but hadn't developed supporting basics enough. The amount of HKD and or TKD training (and teaching) I was doing had a large effect on the amount of time I could train in arnis. David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com WATT Lead Engineer Alcatel USA 1000 Coit Road Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: "A. Boyd" Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: ROK Training Stan... I reread my post and I agree it's none too clear. My friends and fellow students here in Korea all agree on one thing. TKD in the army was one of the worst experiences of their lives. Regardless of their past experience with martial arts as youths they must undertake the intensive and physically abusive training program once they've been activated for duty. Some people who are not pysically able to be soldiers or who have the proper money for bribes can opt to do other community services such as riot police or traffic police. They still must train. I have only met one man who was allowed to abstain from all service due to his legal blindness. Stories tell of training barefoot and wearing only shorts in the snow. Koreans are not too interested in training the individual so lessons tend to force people into a box. Flexibility training gets gruesome at this point as legs are literally pulled apart until they meet the requirements. Hospital stays are common. Those who survive unhurt are generally pretty tough but you can see the results of all this wera and tear on older men here. Other factors also apply of course. Of what use is training as a youth then? Well, it serves a variety of functions. One is discipline. Parents expect teachers to socialize children. This is not the role of parent here. Pride plays a role. The most significant factor I feel is the issue of training. If a child trains from an early age they have time to develop the flexibility and understanding necessary to survive the training unhurt. Also, soldiers with previous experience often lead their squad in training and this has financial perks. (At less than 10 dollars per month perks are essential! 10 000 won monthly salary) There are also special squads that focus on unarmed training and if a child is good enough they can enter demonstration squads where the quality of life is higher. This is not a major factor in early training though as theses squads are small. Anyway, of all of my students rougly 40% are in HKD, TKD or another art currently. Perhaps 60% have studied something at one time or another but quit for financial or time reasons. The remainder don't practice anything and generally don't know why. TKD isn't really taught in the schools like some think. It's taught like basketball is taught. There is a season for everything. Sometimes they kick balls other times they practice kicks. Gumdo is also taught in schools from time to time but they certainly aren't learning swordsmanship! The schedules for children are different than for adults and they typically have to pass through more belts. Testing usually takes place on a 6-8 week cycle and first dan or it's under 15 equivalent in TKD, is reached in a year more or less. Second dan is slower but still a year to a year and a half is standard. The more formal the art the longer the wait seems to be. These times can be shortened if the instructor feels you show talent or if you choose to enroll in special mentorship programs which are typically solo classes. Third dan takes a long time. If a student were to train 5 or 6 days a week for 2 hours they can rise from white belt to 4th dan in about 7 years. Is the quality of a Korean 1 year BB the same as a western 3-5 year BB? I don't know. We seem to place a lot of emphasis on BB which doesn't exist here. About the only reaction I ever get to my rank is that, "Oh, so you like it then?" Not even being a foreigner makes a BB a big deal. Second dan shows real dedication to the style and third dans get pestered to start teaching somewhere. Fourth dans are pestered to start looking for a place to open a school... === Anthony BT Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher For illumination on this curious occupation please follow this link: http://victorian.fortunecity.com/operatic/739 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Patrick J. Monahan" Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:06:23 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: How old were you when you started your MA? Kerry, 1) How old were you when you started your MA? I started MA in my 30's. It seems TKD is a MA well suited to the young and not-so gravity challenged. I'm not giving up by any means. I'll just work harder. I started about the same time as a 15 year old guy and so far we are progressing identically. Let's hear it for the old folks. 2) How long did it take you to reach BB? ( or how long will it take on your current schedule ? ) No BB yet. After 18 months I'm a 4th gup. I usually attend 5 days a week with one sessions being on sat that is about 2 1/2 to 3 hrs. The other workouts are typically 1.5-2 hrs. 3) Do you feel that you took too long? Or maybe not long enough? Most of the time *I feel* my skill matches my belt ranking. I find it difficult to separate the belt color from the art itself. On one hand I tell myself and my TKD colleagues that it's not about the belt color or the stripe. But deep down I want to be promoted to the next color. I believe this is in part to the way a BB is held in such high regard. We are drilled upon how the BB is *the* goal. 4) How much did the rest of life impact your progress? Since I work out most evenings, anything outside of TKD can potentially impact my progress/workout. I try to balance my TKD goals with the rest of my life. I don't feel much of my life suffers or is sacrificed since right now a BB in TKD is important. Patrick Monahan monahan@cisco.com WTF, 4th Gup ------------------------------ From: "Todd and Debi Deininger" Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:17:31 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Dojangs in NE PA I am going to be spending some time in NE PA this summer and was wondering if anyone on the list is from that area and doesn't mind visiters at their school. Thanks. Todd ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 19:19:37 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: signature quote In a message dated 6/29/99 9:58:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Greg Giddins ggiddins@corp.webb.net (sorry, can't find a new witty signature quote, maybe next week....) >> dangit greg! i live for these things ;) melinda ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #333 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.