From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #335 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thurs, 1 July 1999 Vol 06 : Num 335 In this issue: the_dojang: Teaching on campus the_dojang: Re: Starting Over the_dojang: RE: Survey the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #334 the_dojang: You're 3rd Dan - now what? Subject: the_dojang: Scoliosis and Sciatica and Kicking the_dojang: Are We There Yet? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #334 Re: the_dojang: Are We There Yet? the_dojang: Master Silz the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:58:36 -0600 (MDT) Subject: the_dojang: Teaching on campus > From: Piotr Bernat [SNIP] > > For those of you who teach in dank dungeons on campus or in > >community centers and make your living elsewhere, what obstacles > >do you face from your host or facility co-ordinator? Our dungeon isn't dank, but it really needs a paint job. ;-) Colorado State University's club sports people are pretty supportive. The biggest problem I run into is that you have to be affilitated with the Univeristy to train with us - which means that, for example, if someone graduates, they more or less have to change schools. I understand the reasons why that rule was put in place, but it does put us (an the other marial arts groups) in a bind. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: Mo Smith Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Starting Over If you earned a rank at another school you should keep that rank no matter where you go. More so if you are ataying within the same governing body (ITF, WTF). Otherwise, what's the point of having those governing bodies? My school is WTF. I started in another school up to my blue belt and when I joined my current school they left me as a blue belt. My instructor told me that she felt that if I earned the belt and she disregarded it then that would be disrespectful of my last teacher. To overcome some issues with coming into a new school as a higher ranking belt and to make sure that I was up on the particulars of the school, I re-took the all the exams at my new school until I was caught up. She combined many of the tests for me so that it took about 6 months for me to catch up, but it was time well spent. But during that six month period I was still considered a blue belt. Plus, I was looked on a a good resource for some different training methods that I brought from my old school. I though that this was a fair method of bringing in a student who started at a different school. The other students didn't feel any resentment because I went through all the tests (although accelerated) that they did. I'm now a black belt and still with them. That's my two cents worth.. Mo _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:39:03 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Survey Lots of interesting responses to the "survey"... thanks. I realized that I didn't fully give my own responses, so for what it's worth: 1) I started when I was 19, advanced to 8th Gup. Took a 20-year break, then started again when I was 40. Smart move, huh? 2) Reached Dan-Bo in 5 years, with some layoffs for injury. Hopefully will test for Cho Dan this October. 3) Like most everyone else, I think the timing turned out about right. Any faster and I would have been pushing my creaking bones too hard. Too much slower and I would have been frustrated, even though I know there's no hurry. Most of us do like the recognition given by promotion. 4) I've been fortunate in that my "real" life hasn't intruded too much. I was divorced before I re-started, and my daughters were older so they were developing independent lives. Now I'm at the point where I have to start thinking about how much of my "real" life TKD will become. Kerry ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:47:56 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #334 In a message dated 7/1/99 8:52:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I'd just be interested in knowing the minimum requirements or standards that Koreans usually have before opening their own dojang. Are they forced to by their parents or by their instructors to pursue this course of action? Do they have to have some sort of instructor's certification, and when do they usually sit for it? Please, anything else you can think of as well. >> The Hapkido school down the street from me had a 3rd dan in there "managing" a school under his instructor ... but was told he could not open his "own" school till he was a 6th dan. He ran the school for 6 years (all by himself day in and day out) and then his instructor closed the school down because of alot of money problems related to the main dojang. Now he is out of a job ... and still a 3rd dan with no permission to open his own school ... even tho he ran that one for 6 years with no teaching/marketing assistance from his instructor. Oh well. Illona p.s. I opened my own when I was a 4th dan ... with over 25 years in the arts. I felt ready / but not ready. I learn something new everyday ! ------------------------------ From: "A. Boyd" Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: You're 3rd Dan - now what? Mr. Fisk, >I would just like to ask for clarification on something you mentioned. Ok, my pleasure. (quote)"Second dan shows real dedication to the style and third dans get pestered to start teaching somewhere. Fourth dans are pestered to start looking for a place to open a school..."(quote) >Did you see a lot of this happening? From my short period there, I didn't >quite notice this in the schools that I checked out. .... Even at Seoul >Foreign School, which I attended, the instructor had 6th dan. I've been in Korea for only 2 years now so I'm certainly no expert on things. I have direct experience with 3 hapkido dojangs under two different associations and quite a few Hai Dong Gumdo dojangs. I have quite a few friends and associates that study hapkido but I have only met one foreign Taekwondo practitioner in my stay here. Hai Dong Gumdo is in an expansion period so I feel the experience with it will color any 'results' I might post so I'll keep them separate and list them first. If a student seeks to teach and only wants to instruct others on the sportive side of the art without delving into meditation, combat theory and acrobatics then, in Korea, they can start instructing at 2nd dan. They generally need to open a school under the aegis of a more highly ranked instructor because of the fierce competition. Obviously, in a land where "everyone has a black belt", 2nd Dan isn't going to seem so lofty. In my dojang the kwanjangnim is 6th dan and his bukwanjangnim is 4th dan. I often see new students ask why he doesn't open his own school and he just shrugs and talks about seeking a wife. He is a very grounded young man and not at all the norm. In my own case I had to make a choice. I could train to second dan normally and go home with some performance art under my belt or I could train intensively with the kwanjangnim. I chose the latter (to heck with the language barrier!) and he wants me to stay with him until I acheive 3rd dan. At that point he wants me to flee Korea (apparently for my health) and open a dojang. I want to stay on until 4th dan. Anywat, the most common rank opening schools in Korea for HDG is 3rd dan. The primary dojong in the city will have a 5th dan practitioner. In hapkido it seemed similar but I have far less experience in this arena. If a student wants to teach then he starts leading occasional classes once at the black belt level. He gets a more predictable slot after 2nd dan and then opens a branch school under his master after 3rd dan. At 5th dan they are independent of their instructor. Until then the schools seem to do many activities and share training at least once a week. It is very hard for these younger instructors to survive due to the prevalance of highly ranked instructors and the stunning array of kwans and associations and federations... Finding a new school can be pretty onerous. If the market will support it they'll try to open a school because seemingly, almost every 5th dan has created his own kwan and wants to spread it! I have almost 0 experience with taekwondo but I'll share what I know. The woman student I know felt her black belt was purchased not earned so her experiences are not too positive and I suspect her school is dodgy. So, this information is likely not indicative of the entire 'state of the nation.' In her experience the masters are all highly ranked and no one tries to open a school of their own until 4th or 5th dan. It is the most popular martial art in Korea followed by hapkido. Hapkido is gaining ground I think. The competition is extremely tough and many instructors will specialize in something like 'children' or 'pre-schoolers' or Olympics... you name it. Why is my two cents so much bigger than everyone else's? Am I all wet? I'd just be interested in knowing the minimum requirements or standards that Koreans usually have before opening their own dojang. Are they forced to by their parents or by their instructors to pursue this course of action? Do they have to have some sort of instructor's certification, and when do they usually sit for it? Please, anything else you can think of as well. I find that sort of funny considering that I'm testing for my second dan soon, and will be sitting for my instructor's certificate in September. Although I'm technically only an assistant at the moment, I have been handling my instructor's classes all by myself for the past 4 years. What are the minimum requirements in your respective organizations? Sincerely, Emil Fisk === Anthony BT Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher For illumination on this curious occupation please follow this link: http://victorian.fortunecity.com/operatic/739 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Joan Bostic Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 18:38:11 -0700 Subject: Subject: the_dojang: Scoliosis and Sciatica and Kicking Both my son and I suffer from Scoliosis (he wears a Milwaukee brace; mine isn't quite so bad). His specialist restricted him from gymnastics, but allowed him to play hockey and practice karate. Since his specialist is a partner in one of the premier spine centers in the country, I feel pretty confident about his judgment. Your restrictions might be due to curvature at a riskier spot, but had you considered getting a second opinion about the recommended limitations, just in case? Re: the Sciatica. I have it as well, and find that really intense kicking work-outs will aggravate it, but if I take Tolectin DS right away when it flares up, it doesn't seem to bother me as much. Tolectin is a prescription anti-inflammatory that isn't often prescribed for Sciatica, but which I've had tremendous relief with. (My own M.D. said something to the effect of "Gee, I hadn't heard of anyone prescribing that since med school.") If you don't find anything relieves your discomfort, you might want to ask your physician about it. Good luck. Joan Bostic Two Harbors, MN ------------------------------ From: Joan Bostic Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 19:02:27 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Are We There Yet? All this discussion of how long to BB and is five years too long, or is one year too short makes me wonder about how we view our art(s). (It also somewhat reminds me of my eight year old calling out from the back seat of the car "Are we there yet?" but that's another thread.) I wonder if we get too focused on the destination and lose sight of the journey. I'm only a 6th Gup, but I recognize that I've received an education (a gift, really) that transcends meeting the requirements to acquire my rank. It seems to me that developing a balance of appreciating what we've attained, while still looking forward to what is ahead, is the key. To only look forward, to only look at the achievement (belt) and length of time it takes to get there cheapens the whole process. But then, I'm just an idealistic newcomer. Tang Soo! Joan Bostic Two Harbors, MN ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:23:32 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #334 In a message dated 7/1/99 8:47:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << expect them to start as a white> >belt just because they are no longer in a school but have decided to enter> >you dojang (mind you the forms are still the same). That is BULL!> No Mike--its called "marketing". - --CJ >> Really, I think it is called the best way to learn, the Empty Cup. SESilz ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Are We There Yet? > All this discussion of how long to BB and is five years too long, or is > one year too short makes me wonder about how we view our art(s). (It > also somewhat reminds me of my eight year old calling out from the back > seat of the car "Are we there yet?" but that's another thread.) I > wonder if we get too focused on the destination and lose sight of the > journey. I'm only a 6th Gup, but I recognize that I've received an > education (a gift, really) that transcends meeting the requirements to > acquire my rank. It seems to me that developing a balance of > appreciating what we've attained, while still looking forward to what is > ahead, is the key. To only look forward, to only look at the > achievement (belt) and length of time it takes to get there cheapens the > whole process. But then, I'm just an idealistic newcomer. I think part of it has to do with the western desire to obtain a "black belt", a 1st Dan. They think of it as the end, instead of what it was meant to be, a symbol of the beginning. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Master Silz Taken with permission from Gregg London's newsletter. [snip] Master Steven Silz (U.S. Taekwondo Center - San Diego, CA) announced that his school would close on June 30, 1999. Master Silz was the owner of the second U.S. Taekwondo Center (number one is owned by Master Sang Lee). In an E-Mail message I received, Master Silz had this to say: "after a wonderful, eleven (11) year run, my need for hip replacement surgery has put me on the sidelines for a bit. And, although I can no longer be my student's instructor, I will always strive to be a Master they can look up to." Master Silz will be missed. [snip] Master Silz will be undergoing a hip replacement. Anyone out there with experience in training after a hip replacement? Master Silz is interested in hearing from those that have undergone that experience. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #335 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.