From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #396 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 13 Aug 1999 Vol 06 : Num 396 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Tradition the_dojang: Traditional Taekwondo the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #393 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #395 the_dojang: Re: Nunchaku Forms the_dojang: more tradition [none] the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:13:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Tradition > Traditional Taekwondo... In an art that is less than 50 years old there > really is no traditional Taekwondo. Some may try to make that claim (26 > yrs > ago I was in such a school), but IMHO it is just another marketing ploy. > After all, if there were a traditional Taekwondo it would just be Japanese > > Karate-do. > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com > > A lot of people have stated a similar view, and I tend to agree, but it raises a question: Just how long does it take for something to become traditional? 1000 years? 500? Hey, why not 50? Or is it an aspect other than time? Whatcha think, folks? Kerry ------------------------------ From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:33:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Traditional Taekwondo > unless I entered into competition. Also, I was told that there are two forms > of TKD > accepted: traditional, but no name for the other. RAY: <> I agree with you Ray, and I consider myself and what I teach "Traditional Korean Martial Arts". I've attained Dan ranking in Karate-do also, so I agree that what I teach, Tang Soo Do, is very similar, only Korean flavored. That's why I like Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do so much, the best of both worlds, forms similar to those found in most all Japanese styles of Karate, and the Korean kicks found in Taekwondo. Basically a blend of both of them. I don't do the modern competition training found in many (WTF) Taekwondo dojangs, so I do consider what I do "traditional Taekwondo". After all, when I first began in Taekwondo in the mid '70s, we did the same things that I'm doing now. I consider it more of the "art" side of Taekwondo, instead of the "competition" aspect of it. (before everyone gets their panties in a wad, I realize that the competition sparring of TKD is also "art"; it's just my definitions and way of separating the sport and non sport aspects). Later, Mac ------------------------------ From: 4karate@bellsouth.net Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:24:16 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #393 > From: Danny Abramovitch > My thoughts on this are that it sounds nice but it is false. > > Perhaps something natural is a perfect killer. > I guess that is a true statement. However, the implication of the statement > (what I read) is that natural=good, and this is false. > I think I'll go spread some more sunshine elsewhere. > > - -- Danny Well....I wasn't going to make a posting on this subject...as I had sent Jason private e-mail with my thoughts...but....Danny here has sort of made me change my mind....so here is a copy of what I sent to Jason. "jason, perhaps this can help you with your essay: A flower opening its bloom to the sun after a spring shower. A baby kitten giving himself a bath and then suddenly finding excitement in chasing his tail. A waterfall on a cold, crystal clear mountain stream. The sky in the afternoon of a sunny fall day. Looking up at midnight on a clear night into the milkyway. Two small children sharing their toys on the playground. A young girl in a formal dress, ready to go to her first prom dance. A young man in a sharp suit or tux....nervous about making a good impression on the young girl. A baby, giggling and eyes all a wonder just after his bath. A preying mantis on a dewey leaf.....poised in silent perfection. A first kiss. Sunlight breaking through the clouds. The majesty of a mountain viewed from afar. The wonder of world...viewed from the mountaintop. The kindess of a total stranger whom you never see again. A pebble in a pond. Ripples in the water. Ocean waves. Whale song. A lone flute playing in the night. Temple bells. Chimes in a soft breeze. The comfort of a best friend. The nourishment of a lovers affection. The essence of God within yourself. Finding something that is clean, that is natural, that is perfect is not so great a challenge. You only must sit quietly....listen....and in stillness....you can percieve all these things and more. Kwai Chang Cain: "Old Man. You are blind. Of all things...to live in darkness must be the worst." Master Po: "You think that I cannot see! Close your eyes. Listen for the color of the sky. Search the air for the perfume of ice on a hot day." "Do you hear your heartbeat?" Cain: "No." Master Po: "Do you hear the grasshopper which is at your feet?" Cain: "Old Man! How is it that you hear these things?" Master Po: "Young man! How is it that you.....do not?!" Master John Hancock Mi Yong Kwan (American Dragons School)" I think, Danny, you have attached in your own mind the construct Good or Bad. Perfection is simply that. It simply is what it is. And it isn't so much a thing or a formulation...as it is a condition...or a process. Clean? Even a tiger taking down a racing deer makes a "clean kill" and one that is 'natural' and 'perfect'. You see...being TRUE to ones nature IS perfection. Unless of course you assume that aspect to the universe that you call God (whatever that may be to you) isn't omnipotent, omnipicient and omnipresent. I don't see why nature can't be messy and chaotic and this has to be anyless perfect that our constructs of clean and orderly. The universe is wonderous. Somethings....chaos is the perfect aspect....as it leads to surprize and newness....and greater processes of perfection. Just ask anyone who has found inner calm. Most you will find have gone through extremely terrible chaotic periods...where their life was a complete mess. To the Taoist thinker.....you simply can't have one without the other. If you had no left arm.....and neither did I...nor did anyone else.....how could we possible know what a right arm would be like.....or know the value of that left arm to begin with. Here's a simple little exercise about understanding the beauty and perfection of nature. Our species evolved to have thumbs. We often take that for granted. Have someone tape both of your thumbs down to your hand where you cannot use them at all. Then go for 1 day like that. I'm smiling here...because I know you will find the effect quite surprizing about how much you will appreciate the thumb the next day when the tape comes off. John Hancock. ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:15:13 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #395 In a message dated 8/13/99 10:03:03 AM Mountain Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << After all, if there were a traditional Taekwondo it would just be Japanese Karate-do. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Dear Ray, I can't go with your response. I have to say that "traditional taekowndo" would be more like: taekyon, subak, or hwarang do (not the current spin-off of HapKiDo), than it would Japanese Karate. As you likely know, Japanese Karate-Do has likely descended from the Okinawa-te, which may very well have been a off-shoot of early Korean martial arts. Therefore, it is probably more accurate to say that "Karate is Japanese Taekwondo," than to say "Taekwondo is Korean Karate !" Despite what influence the Japanese arts may have had during the occupation of Korea, the Korean arts had already shaped the predecessors to those so-called Japanese systems. A defensible point of view, no? SESilz ------------------------------ From: William Deady Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Nunchaku Forms > From: "Kevin W. Tibbs" > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:49:38 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: the_dojang: Nunchaku forms > > Hello All, > > I realize that traditional teakwondo doesn't include weapons; however, I am > interested in finding any forms that include the nunchaku. I've been unable to > find any such forms on the web, so do any of you know of any references that > contain details of nunchaku forms? > > Thanks for you time, > Kevin W. Tibbs > Kevin, I have just completed a class in chuks. I have a poster of the basic chuk form and also have a book that has an advanced form in it. (Don't have the book here and don't remember what it is right now) I could scan the poster and send it to you, if you'd like. It would have to be several scans which you could then put together. The poster is bigger than my scanner. Please respond by private mail. deady@ll.mit.edu I will be on vacation for the next week so will not be able to do this until I return. BTW, I have also, just for giggles, taken the ITF form Yul Kok and modified it for chuks. Not allowed in most tournaments and not an officially recognized form, but lots of fun anyway. I can also send you the name and author of that book. Bill Deady deady@ll.mit.edu ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: more tradition > << After all, if there were a traditional Taekwondo it would just be Japanese > Karate-do. > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com > > Dear Ray, > > I can't go with your response. I have to say that "traditional taekowndo" > would be more like: taekyon, subak, or hwarang do (not the current spin-off > of HapKiDo), than it would Japanese Karate. But we have no idea, zero/zip/nada, of what Subak or Hwarang Do where like. The art of the Hwarang was most likely Kwon Bup, ie. Kung Fu. Of Subak we know even less. We do know what TaekKyon was/is like. It is nothing like Tangsudo or Kongsudo, but does remind one, at least a little, of Olympic style TKD. So - -I- might could go along with Traditional TKD is somewhat like TaekKyon is something like new TKD. But it seems when most think of Traditional TKD they envision a Karate-do like art. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "kadin goldberg" Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:36:47 MDT Subject: [none] hey everyone! I was just reading the digest once again and i keep hearing about all the competitions. Do all MA have competitions? Do you have to join them yourself or with the school you are in. I AM SO EXCITED!!!!!!!!!!! I get to start my MA on the 1st of september. I hope it is what i expect(i know that i should not expect so much from it but oh well) - ---Kadin _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #396 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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