From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #400 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 16 Aug 1999 Vol 06 : Num 400 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #395 Re: the_dojang: yet even more tradition stuff the_dojang: Re: Should we? the_dojang: depends... the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #399 - chat room! the_dojang: Re: Indomitable Spirit the_dojang: good people do another good thing: last call the_dojang: TKD & Karate the_dojang: Re: Chatroom the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #399 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #399 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MSFG@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:04:24 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #395 In a message dated 99-08-13 12:04:08 EDT, you write: << Traditional Taekwondo... In an art that is less than 50 years old there really is no traditional Taekwondo. Some may try to make that claim (26 yrs ago I was in such a school), but IMHO it is just another marketing ploy. After all, if there were a traditional Taekwondo it would just be Japanese Karate-do. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com >> TRADITION - "The transmission of knowledge, opinion, doctrines, customs, practices, etc., from generation to generation, originally by word of mouth and by example." Why cannot something which has existed for 50 years have traditions? Is there a time limit? 100 years? 200 years? Who decides when a martial art may call itself traditional? I think, perhaps, when someone says they study a "traditional" martial art, they mean that they are practicing the customs of a particular country/peoples - in this instance, Korea. Korea is steeped in tradition, many of the good ones have been transfered to the martial arts of Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, Hap Ki Do, etc. Just because these particular arts - or names being used today - have not been in existence as long as the Japanese or Chinese arts does not mean they do not utilize traditions which have been indigenous to the Korean people for thousands of years. (deference to elders and higher ranked students, humility, obedience, etc). Methinks you opened mouth and inserted foot this time, Ray. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 07:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: yet even more tradition stuff > Why cannot something which has existed for 50 years have traditions? You may have created new traditions, but does that make it a traditional Korean martial art? I obviously think not, perhaps you think so... > .... I think, perhaps, when someone says they study > a "traditional" martial art, they mean that they are practicing the customs > of a particular country/peoples - in this instance, Korea. Ok, but that is not typically the case. > Methinks you opened mouth and inserted foot this time, Ray. Owwlll!, I hate it when that happens... :) Wouldn't be the first time. But you haven't convinced me yet. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Alexander, Stephen (Nexfor)" Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:35:20 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Should we? >Should we plan for another members chat in the chatroom of the_dojang >(http://www.escribe.com/martialarts/dojang/chat) this coming Friday evening, >August 20? What's your suggestion of a topic? How about something along the lines of a discussion on self defense technique or the like ( I don't know that would work? ). Last time it became more about politics in the USTU than it was about Martial Arts. And frankly, politics in general bore the he## out of me... Do you have a special guest lined up yet??? Has Mr. Norris accepted your invite? Steve Alexander To win 100 victories in 100 battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill. Sun Tzu / Gichin Funakoshi ....... Take your pick ! ------------------------------ From: El Bandito Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:40:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: the_dojang: depends... Well, that all depends... are you on the Kansas State School Board? =09=09=09=09Zero-G > From: eirikr1@home.com >=20 > Ah, but consider the raindrop on your head. Is it brand new because it > fell this morning, or is it as old as it's been falling, 4 Billion > years? __________________________________________________________________________= __ Garth C. Robins =B7 6E Portugal St. =B7 Cambridge CB5 8AP =B7 United K= ingdom (+44) (0)1223 525-410 =B7 www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~robins =20 ------------------------------ From: Chris McKenna Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:00:51 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #399 - chat room! Chat room????, is it just me or is there never anyone there? Or is it, as I suspect, USA local time? So whenever i am on during the day all the list members are asleep?? Chris MCkenna GTF Scotland UK ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:27:29 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Indomitable Spirit >cuan.duncan: I hold a first degree Black Belt in ITF Taekwon-do, and for >the past eight >years I have been struggling to obtain the Korean calligraphy for the tenet >of "Indomitable Spirit", spelled "Baekjul Boolgool" in English. > >All I need is the hangul for Indomitable Spirit (preferably in electronic >format, if at all possible). I will make prints of that, etc for my own >use. Calligraphy for all the 5 tenets are on page 14 of the 15 volume encyclopedia of Choi. I don't know which one is Baekjul Boologool, but it should be in there... Sincerely, Anders T. B. ------------------------------ From: Judi Connelly Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: good people do another good thing: last call As the Internet Martial Arts Community, collectively we seem to be able to gather enough items every 3-4 months to ship to Sarajevo. Our companions in Sarajevo are striving to succeed. Your donations are encouraging them in spirit as well as providing them with the gear and training material they need. For you, this effort is as simple as placing a box in your dojang and asking folks to donate the uniforms that their kids have outgrown or books you've already read or old belts if you're not sentimental about keeping them. Re-breakable boards are requested because Nedzad's dojang cannot afford to purchase wood. Please reply to this email directly if you would like to donate. Include your name and your dojang name and any other information you wish to be included. I will be sending the shipments to Bosnia, you only need to send to Virginia. The next shipment is scheduled for two weeks. IF you need more time I'll wait. Read the letters and see pictures from Nedzad and Anela and you'll be glad you have the chance to help them and their students. http://www.acdk.org/ and then choose TaeKwondo in Sarajevo thanks, Judi Oriental Sports Academy, Ashburn, VA ------------------------------ From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:03:04 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: TKD & Karate From: "Pfeifer, Steven" <> Well Steve, and excellent question. I've seen differences in the forms, stances, and techniques. Even in the same forms, they can be done a bit differently. If I remember, in Shorin-Ryu Bassai is done in mostly all back stances, where in Shoto-Kan and Tangsoodo, mostly all front stances. The kick were also very low in the Japanese arts, and I think in Shorie-Ryu the side kick was at the foot/shin, more of a stomp to the ground. Tangsoodo and Shorin-Ryu do the form Chinto very similar - with front kicks, where Shoto-Kan does side kicks... Japanese & Okanawan arts like to focus on forms(Kata) and their interpretations(bunki), where Taekwondo put less focus on forms(hyung, poomse) and more on sparring(deryun or koguri, kumite in Japanese). Tangsoodo tends to be much more balanced between forms, basic techniques, and sparring (not full contact) and many Tangsoodo groups have added weapons forms. In traditional Tangsoodo sparring, protective equipment is optional (more traditional), so that is why there is no punching to the head and only front and reverse punches count (of course we also practice punching to the head and using backfists and ridgehands... in case we attend open tournaments). I was at an International Tangsoodo Tournament July 31 in Tampa. Even when someone opted to wear glove or foot pads, no hogus were used. Even though controlled technique was supposed to be used, I did see several competitors go down in the Black Belt ring. Glad I wasn't fighting those guys... I talked to a guy from Ireland that went to the emergency room to see if he had a collapsed lung or broken ribs. He told me he was fighting a guy who had no control, almost knocking him out with kicks to the ribs and kicked him in the throat... Yikes! I'd been sick for weeks, but somehow I placed in forms and fighting in the Master's divisions. But I digress...... Back stances in Shorin-Ryu were a bit higher, Shoto-Kan low and deep, Taekwondo somewhere in the middle, while Tangsoodo does what you might think of as a deep cat stance, using the ball of the foot. American freestyle had an extremely wide front stance but a very narrow back stance. Tangsoodo has a very deep back stance (sakorip jasae) where your weight is in the middle, but you don't see it until the very advanced BB forms. More of a Kima jasae with the feet turned out, and then look to one side. Taekwondo has the very upright walking front stance, but you don't see much cat stances. Wing-chung had a modified front stance more like a boxer, but with the toes turned in. Knife hand blocks are different. Shoto-Kan likes to leave the non blocking hand out in front when chambering for the block (I really like that) is more linear in the block, Taekwondo swings both hands back toward the rear, Tangsoodo brings both hands down by the hip and has a little more circular motion to it, Shorie-Ryu keeps both hands together side-by-side and up and around more circular for the block. In Wing-chung they tended to block and attack same time. In sparring, Karate and Tangsoodo tend to hold their hands the same. Karate likes to use a quick snapping rear leg front kick and reverse punch and tend to stand their ground and counterattack. Tangsoodo uses a lighter backstance for sparring but with a lot more movement and liking high kicks. Taekwondo likes to have a very high stance and bounces around much more with a lot of movement and jumping kicks. American freestyle likes to hold their front arm down and use a lot of hop kicks with the front leg, geared toward point sparring. Tangsoodo really focuses on hip twist, both in all techniques and even in stances. I've done some Hapkido, very circular and dancelike in their moves, same kicks as in Taekwondo and Tangsoodo, but they don't just like to block and strike, they would prefer to trap and break a joint. You always wanted to keep your hands away from those guys . I've seen Hapkido harder versions more like Taekwondo and some had a much softer flowing approach like seen in Aikido. Jujitsu reminded me of Hapkido, but the focus was on break and kill, where Hapkido focused on controlling and breaking. These of course, are only my observations and experiences, and don't necessarily mean others do it this way or have the same opinions. I enjoy learning and experiencing other arts. You get to where you see them all the same, just various ways of doing some of the same things and various interpretations and focuses of those teaching their art. (now you know why I'm so screwed up!) I'm so corrupted! These all tend to blend in my head... Yours in the arts, Confused Mac ------------------------------ From: TKDKurt@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:02:40 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Chatroom In a message dated 8/16/99 9:52:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-Ray Terry writes: << Should we plan for another members chat in the chatroom of the_dojang (http://www.escribe.com/martialarts/dojang/chat) this coming Friday evening, August 20? >> I thought the concept was great, but unfortunately my computer at home is too slow to make the chatroom work effectively. So, unless I am working late on Friday night, which I hope to avoid, I will probably not participate. Kurt ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:32:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #399 >All I need is the hangul for Indomitable Spirit (preferably in electronic >format, if at all possible). I will make prints of that, etc for my own >use. A year or so ago, when I was searching for the hangul and hansul for the 5 Codes of the Hwarang Do for the essay part of my cho dan test, I got positive results by e-mailing 2 parties in Korea. The 1st party e-mailed me the ideograms for the Codes that are posted on the Digest site. The name of the person who sent them is, I beleive, there also, although the e-mail address probably is not. The 2nd party was the secretary of the WTU organization in Korea, which has a Web site. However, she provided the ideograms by mail, since she didn't have them in electronic form. If you wish to make inquiries of either party and require contact info, e-mail me and I'll see if I can dig it up. === Tang Soo! Scott ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #399 >Ah, but consider the raindrop on your head. Is it brand new because it >fell this morning, or is it as old as it's been falling, 4 Billion >years? Mankind has been around in some form for roughly 4 million years (YMMV), and can be presumed to have been utilizing some kind of empty handed defense against his own kind for a similar period of time. Therefore, TKD (and all other martial arts) must be 4MM years old, right? === practioner of GM Alley Oop's Monkey Soo Monkey Do Scott ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #400 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.