From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #408 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thurs, 19 Aug 1999 Vol 06 : Num 408 In this issue: the_dojang: The dojang Digest #404 the_dojang: Reply to Master Mac from JP the_dojang: Private lessons the_dojang: virtual dojang the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #400 the_dojang: re: Changing Instructors the_dojang: RE: Recipes for Success the_dojang: Re: Tuition the_dojang: Re: V6 #406: fees the_dojang: Re: V6 #406: Dog Bros the_dojang: Re: the end of KMA? Re: the_dojang: Re: the end of KMA? the_dojang: Re: Common Courtesy the_dojang: thank you the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:35:23 CDT Subject: the_dojang: The dojang Digest #404 >>Laura Kamienski wrote: I would like to share my experience with a self-defense course for women I recently enrolled in. I’ve learned some extremely valuable lessons about choosing courses that I think may be of use to others. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your story, Laura. Unfortunately it reminded me of the old but very true saying, "Buyer Beware!" I think it makes it harder though because we'd like to believe this doesn't happen in the world of martial arts. Even if you did a more thorough upfront investigation of this business, I'm not sure they would have been upfront with you anyway. Even the most critical thinkers can be pulled into these situations and it's not till we're really involved that we see what's really going on. JP _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:46:06 CDT Subject: the_dojang: Reply to Master Mac from JP >>>Jamacia, to answer your question, with the current dan testing fees, I >>>may be ready to make a switch. Looking for a new student? I'm >>>available...>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dennis, nice to hear from you again! Wouldn't it be awesome if we could do virtual workouts. Oh, how I wish that we each had a huge screen TV in our homes or dojangs where we could all link up and workout and talk to each other, a couple times a week. Wouldn't that be sweet now. Think how much we could share and learn.. Dreams do come true... JP _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: HKDTodd@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:56:41 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Private lessons GM Lim, Hyun Soo who one of only 2 people promoted to 9th dan by the founder and is also Choi, Yong Sool's longest running student charges $200.00 for 1hr private class. The crazy thing is that its worth much much more than that. Not everyone who charges high fee's is worth it but GM Lim is the best in his field. TM ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 07:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: virtual dojang > >>>Jamacia, to answer your question, with the current dan testing fees, I > >>>may be ready to make a switch. Looking for a new student? I'm > >>>available...>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Hi Dennis, nice to hear from you again! Wouldn't it be awesome if we could > do virtual workouts. Oh, how I wish that we each had a huge screen TV in > our homes or dojangs where we could all link up and workout and talk to each > other, a couple times a week. Wouldn't that be sweet now. Think how much we > could share and learn.. Well, think several people with digital cameras attached to their computer (netcams) using M$ Netmeeting or Intel Videophone. The technology will continue to evolve, but it is getting to the point where we -can- do the above in smaller groups. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:10:24 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #400 In a message dated 8/16/99 4:24:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Well, that all depends... are you on the Kansas State School Board? >> i cant believe this made it all the way to the UK. i was shocked that this went through. but i suppose it's not an ma topic. most everyone i know is amazed at the decision. melinda kansas city, missouri ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:15:50 CDT Subject: the_dojang: re: Changing Instructors >>>In the end, like it or not, it's a buyer's market. If a student is uncomfortable with the instructor or GM and has tried unsuccessfully to resolve it, he/she should look elsewhere. Even if they and not the instructor are really the problem, it benefits no one for them to stay. Good to have you back, Jamaica! Joan Bostic>>>>>>>>> Hi ya Joan. Nice to hear from you, too. Thanks for the response to the post. One sad thing I know that also happens is when there is no resolution between the student and the instructor but you highly respect the GM. So when you quit the instructor you sometimes have to cut the bonds with the GM that you really like. Sad situation. Hard too on some folks if there isn't a variety of schools in the area that they can switch to. JP _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:19:09 CDT Subject: the_dojang: RE: Recipes for Success >>>mental and physical workouts. It's MAINTAINING that balance through >>>everyday life that is the REAL secret recipe to success! nice to see you again JP!!) Tang Soo!A. Conlon! >>>> Hi and thanks. Boy, oh boy are you correct on that one. Got any words of wisdom on how to accomplish that!! :) JP _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: TKDKurt@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:30:34 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Tuition In a message dated 8/18/99 7:04:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Laranda writes: << I am also relatively new at TKD (3 months). I studied martial arts when I was a teen agree but this seem extremely different than I remember. I signed a 3 yr. contract (that I negotiated down to) $3500 with a school >> Did you pay this all at once?!? I think it is outrageous that new students would be allowed to sign, much less enticed to sign a 3 year contract. This smacks of the old health club abuses. They make a windfall when you quit or stop showing up. How many of you out there have multiyear, prepaid contracts? Laranda, since I am in your area, I would be interested in knowing what school is charging these rates. If you are comfortable telling me, please do so by private e-mail. (I'm hoping it wasn't a branch of our school.) Kurt ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #406: fees Master Mac wrote: >I teach 2 to 3 times a week for $55/mo. Gup tests are $35 each (all >levels). Interesting, that $55/month figure seems to be almost a "standard" for TSD instruction, and it seems a rather strange number to gravitate to. Do you know if it's based on some tenet of GM Hwang Ki's or some practice of one of the major TSD organizations? The school I attend is on GM Shinn's branch of the TSD "tree", but we are independent. >BTW, my next rank test (unless they go up before I test again) will be a >whopping $600! I have two young girls that will be eligible to test in the >spring for a combined testing fee of $750. That seems a bit much to me for >9 & >10 year old little kids, IMO. For me it's a bit more understandable and >most >may think it reasonable. I don't think I want to pay that much for my >girls and >I'm the teacher! Well, I understand the sticker shock. Does that $750 reflect a volume discount;?) OTOH, if we say that kids should train or test for less money than is charged for adults, we need to think about what we imply about kids' instruction, and whether those implications are really proper. For example, one possible attribution of charging less would be an assumption that training and testing children is some combination of less demanding, less important, less costly than training adults. IMHO this is patently false, the opposites may well be true in many cases. (I know you didn't imply any of this in your post, I'm just using it to throw this issue out for debate;>) === Tang Soo! Scott ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #406: Dog Bros >The MAGIC WORDS: "No judges, no referees, no trophies. One rule only: Be >Friends at the end of the day. This means our goal is that no one spends >the night in the hospital and that everyone leaves with the IQ with which >they came. ROFLMAO! I love these guys! === Tang Soo! Scott ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:51:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: the end of KMA? In a message dated 8/17/99 12:00:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: tradition Ok folks... Time to quickly wrap up the thread on traditional Korean martial arts. Thanks. Ray Terry rterry@best.com >> isnt that a bit ironic considering the nature of this list? melinda ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: the end of KMA? >> > Ok folks... Time to quickly wrap up the thread on traditional Korean > martial arts. > > Thanks. > > Ray Terry > rterry@best.com > >> > > isnt that a bit ironic considering the nature of this list? Good point. But once a specific thread starts going in circles, as this one obviously did, it is time to move on. Else we digress into what happens on those lists that are unmoderated, tons of email saying nothing more than "yes it is, no it isn't". Feel free to talk about Taek Kyon or Korean wrestling or similar traditional Korean martial arts/sports. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: dbuehrer@denver.carl.org Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:37:42 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Common Courtesy \ From: Kim Jones \ \ ...I do feel the great need that while you should \ look out for numero uno, whatever happened to courtesy? That sounds like \ one of the five tenets. I mean, if someone doesn't have enough room, I'll \ move for them because I wouldn't want someone to be all in my space. \ People need their space, and I'm a space hog, so I'll definitely give \ people theirs because I respect them. Blindly sitting there from here on \ out when I'm about to cuss you out in Korean in the middle of class will \ warrant a swift kick to the.... yes, I do look out for myself, but I'm not \ completely selfish. This has the potential to be a lively topic :) IMHO one should hope that other people will be courteous, but one shouldn't expect it. I used to expect everyone to be courteous (by my albeit lofty standards), without telling them what I wanted (other than basic requests like asking someone to "please pass the salt"). Guess what? People around me met my expectations maybe 1% of the time (on a good day). I spent a lot of time being frustrated . One day I fell in love, and eventually got married. After accepting my proposal, but before being married, my future wife required us to read a book (and do the workshops there in) on communication. I was resistant and skeptical at first, but reading that book was one of the best things I/we ever did. What I learned is that when someone meets your unvoiced expectations it's pretty much by chance. If you ask someone to meet your expectations you still aren't guaranteed of having them met. They may choose not to grant your request. And even if someone grants your request they may not be able to sufficiently meet your expectations. After reading the book and learning to communicate, my expectations were being met 2% of the time. I was still frustrated. Problem: my expectations weren't being met, even though I had learned to communicate my expectations. Why couldn't people meet my expecations? My expectations didn't seem that unreasonable... It took a while, but I finally identified the real problem: I had expectations. And worse, I expected my expectations to be met ;) Solution: try not to have expectations. For such a simple solution it's a lot harder than it sounds. I've had to shift my perception and learn to enjoy what I get. If you wake up in the morning expecting a sunny day, and it's cloudy, you'll be unhappy. If you wake up and it's a sunny day, and you like sunny days, you'll be happy. If you wake up and it's a cloudy day, and you don't like cloudy days, you'll be unhappy. If you wake up and it's a cloudy day, and you learn to accept the cloudy day, you may be happy. In short, if you have expectations you are avoiding acceptance, IMHO. I used to expect that fellow drivers on the highway would be courteous and not: tailgate, cut people off, etc., and would: let me change lanes after I signaled to change lanes, etc. I was not willing to accept the fact that I was sharing the road with apparently insensitive people. If you learn to accept people as they are life is *much* easier, in my experience. However, I do not advocate blind acceptance. Set your boundaries. Decide what you are not willing to tolerate. If someone crosses one (or more) of your boundaries react appropriately. If someone's behaviour is intolerable, react appropriately. Now, as to what constitutes appropriate behaviour is something I'm still working on ;) I've found that in most circumstances if I politely ask a person to change their behavior it will produce a positive outcome. In other circumstances I've had to remove myself from a situation I'm not willing to tolerate (get off the highway and take the somewhat calmer side streets :). In short, I've found that if I expect everyone else to be courteous it just doesn't work and the frustration of having unmet expectations just isn't worth it. However, if I accept and tolerate the behavior I can, politely communicate my desires, avoid behavior I can't accept, and celebrate those rare moments when someone goes out of their way to be courteous to me, I've found that life can be wonderful. And even after all of that life still throws curve balls. I'm trying to learn to accept that too :) - -David Buehrer - -- Supervisor, Database Preparation The UnCover Company mailto:dbuehrer@denver.carl.org - -- - -- "One little smile can fill the room with sunshine." ------------------------------ From: "Laura Kamienski" Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:20:03 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: thank you Hello all, I wanted to take a moment to thank all of those who sent public and private replies and responses about my experience with a women's self defense course. It has really eased my mind to know that my experience seems to be an isolated incident involving one particular course and that the overwhelming consensus in the martial arts community is openness and cooperation. My hope in all of this was to urge those involved with the course to rethink their policy against taking notes and to help prevent others from enrolling in inferior programs. Posting my story has opened up a lot of new avenues for me to explore regarding women's self defense. What was a very bitter situation has ultimately turned very sweet. I love it when that happens! :^) Thanks again! Laura 1st Dan Chin Mu Kwan Tae Kwon Do lkamiens@ptd.net http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "The destination is not the purpose of a journey; death is not the purpose of life." -Thich Nhat Hanh ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #408 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.