From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #411 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 20 Aug 1999 Vol 06 : Num 411 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Timid and scared Male M.A. Students the_dojang: Fees the_dojang: Are you successful?? A Perspective the_dojang: Re: Are you successful?? A Perspective the_dojang: RE: Teaching HKD the_dojang: RE: Woman's SD the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #410 the_dojang: Billy Bully Bag the_dojang: Re: male self defense classes the_dojang:Re: Indomitable Spirit the_dojang: Re: Long Term Contracts the_dojang: So, what happened to the m.a. men's group? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #409 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #410 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #409 the_dojang: Disciplining kids outside the classroom the_dojang: Re: V6 #410: men's classes the_dojang: Re: V6 #410: long term contracts the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alexander, Stephen (Nexfor)" Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:48:46 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Timid and scared Male M.A. Students JP Wrote: >>Has anybody had experience with a timid new male m.a.? How have you helped him overcome his hurdles? << Well, J. My wife and I have trained with a certain fellow for a few years now who is EXACTLY what you describe in your post. VERY low self confidence. This person is extremely intelligent from an academic standpoint, but, well, he seems to have a real problem with asserting himself. Incredibly soft spoken, (a low talker, for you Seinfeld fans) always will avert his eyes in a conversation, that type of fella. For example, when we leave the Dojang after classes, we all bow to our Master on our way out, and say goodnight to him and such. Well, this fella will come up to the office and stand outside and wait until *everyone* else has pushed their way by and bowed out, then, he will work up the nerve to actually bow out and say goodnight. He also has a problem with technique in that he is not very well co-ordinated, and does not pick up on things very quickly. I can't comment on how hard it was for him to join, but, I can say that it must take a lot for him not to get discouraged and leave. We have seen other people buzz by him in belts, and still, there he is at class with a seemingly unflappable dedication to TKD. This fellow recently acquired his red belt after about 4 years of hard training, my wife and I would like to think we have been part of that achievement for him, (although it is all his hard work that paid off) we have coached him on forms, technique, and sparring. My wife is good at helping someone get over the fear of sparring, when she was a white belt / yellow belt (can't remember exactly which now) she was in a tournament and she ended up having to spar another girl who outweighed her by 30 lbs. and was a green belt. Well, wifey took a heck of a punch to the chest and she lost her wind. (she always makes comments now about how it's a good thing she isn't double D's ;->) Took her about a year to get over that fear, and since has become very good at helping others overcome the fear of sparring, having been there and already dealt with it. We have also made sure we have included this fellow in activities we do at the club. (and not left out like the poor soul who is always the last to get picked for the softball team) We have also tried to just be good friends to him, he calls on us with personal issues sometimes, and although we may not be much REAL help to him, at least he has someone he can talk with. FWIW Steve Alexander Student of the Martial Arts. War never decides who is right, only who is left. ------------------------------ From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:02:15 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Fees From: samiller@Bix.Com Master Mac wrote: >I teach 2 to 3 times a week for $55/mo. Gup tests are $35 each (all >levels). Scott: <> No. It's what I think it is worth and what the market can bare. Where I am there is a MA school on almost every corner, including another TSD school directly across the street from me! (one of your association dojangs ) Scott: <> I've met and had dinner with GM Shinn, very nice guy. In fact, all the masters, instructors and students of the WTSDA have been extremely nice and friendly. I'm friends with the competition" across the street, Master Sharpe, you may know him, great guy. Mac: > I have two young girls that will be eligible to test in the >spring for a combined testing fee of $750. That seems a bit much to me for >9 & 10 year old little kids, IMO. Scott: <> You're a funny guy Scott... << OTOH, if we say that kids should train or test for less money than is charged for adults, we need to think about what we imply about kids' instruction, and whether those implications are really proper. ..... example, one possible attribution of charging less would be an assumption that training and testing children is some combination of less demanding, less important, less costly than training adults. IMHO this is patently false, the opposites may well be true in many cases. (I know you didn't imply any of this in your post, I'm just using it to throw this issue out for debate;>) >> No, there is not a lesser charge for children, and thanks for realizing that I wasn't implying it should be. Kids have the same requirements as the adults. Of course, adults tend to have much more power in techniques etc., Just for little kids, it's hard for me to think of paying that much money for their tests right now. They are not old enough to go out and teach or start their own school, that sort of thing. I'm sure they don't care at all where their certificate even comes from, whether I give them one or one from the Federation signed by the Grandmaster. They are happy either way. For someone such as an adult or a higher ranking Dan member, yes we are more concerned with who and where we get our certification and our "lineage" to the founder. I teach mostly kids, and most of whom have never even met the Grandmaster. I guess I just don't see the value of kids having to spend so much money for that piece of paper. I have mostly only had private or independent instructors in the past, and I don't ever remember even paying for any Dan tests, and usually didn't even pay for instruction. So yes, this is sticker shock for me now that I am in a "federation" working directly with the Grandmaster. For those who have "grown up" in associations and federations where gup/dan testing fees are an accepted fact of training, this may not seem so unreasonable. I also hate the fact that I feel that I'm a little out of the loop on Dan tests (I can and have promoted BB myself, but the GM likes to do them all) and after I purchase them a fully trimmed uniform and embroidered belt and throw them a party, I not only don't make money on these expensive tests, I'm usually in the hole (I freely do it because I want to do it for them). I've sat in on the board for Dan testing with the WTSDA, and the masters did all the testing/grading while GM Shinn watched on. In the WMDKTSDF, we may sit at the head table with him, but GM Kim does *all* the testing and grading himself, with no input from us. We are the passive lookers on, not the GM. (hopefully, I'm not implying that GM Shinn has no input or say he most likely does) And with this observation, the masters appear to be much more harder on those being tested than a GM can be . I would have died during that WTSDA test..... Thanks for you reply Scott, Mac TANG SOO! ------------------------------ From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:08:14 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Are you successful?? A Perspective From: "Alexander, Stephen (Nexfor)" Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:30:39 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Are you successful?? A Perspective Great Story, thanks for sharing that. Mac TANG SOO! ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:13:24 CDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Are you successful?? A Perspective >>>I don't think this is exactly what Jamaica had in mind when she started >>>the thread, but this is something that's made me think about the >>>definition o fsuccess. Stephen Alexander>>>>> This is so great. Thanks for sharing. I didn't have anything in particular in mind because it so different for everybody. This story sure makes a person think, doesn't it? JP _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Don.Hahn@phs.com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 08:50:06 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Teaching HKD >>From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:04:29 CDT Subject: the_dojang: Broadened curriculums and fees. >>HKD generally requires each person to be taught separately due to >>differences in techniquese learned, level of experience, etc.. Our students get their $'s worth. BTW, the rate is $100/hour for private lesson, if you want.>>>> Just a couple questions to anyone...Should schools that offer a broadened curriculum say, HKD with TKD charge more? and do you feel that if HKD is not taught individually as stated above that the student is getting a disservice instead of a comprehensive martial arts instruction and education? This could apply to other combinations as well. << I'd be happy to hear on how you teach a class of varying skill levels all learning different techniques in a group mode. ------------------------------ From: Don.Hahn@phs.com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 08:53:08 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Woman's SD >>I recently started a women's sparring class at my dojang. It has been a great success on many levels. One night after a hard bout of sparring matches at a 'regular' class my instructor announced the time for the next women's sparring class since it interferes with the normal schedule. A male co-student asked "Hey, when are we going to have men's sparring?" I being the only female student present replied..."I think we just did!" I am often the only female student btw. The point is that men have never been discriminated against, as a group, based on their sex. I agree there are some timid and less aggressive men in the world. Some of these men might find the macho black belt image a bit intimidating, but in general, they don't need to worry about rape or sexual assault, sexual harassment on the street, or the workplace or at home. Furthermore, men are not presented with images of helpless inefficacy to aspire to. I think that, unlike women, even the most timid male has a whole host of assertive and strong role models to choose from. Women have only recently entered this arena. Boys are taught to fight early on. I don't think that wrestling or other similar contact sports have yet become part of the women's physical education curriculum. One night I was watching my instructor wrestling on the floor with two neighbor boys (around age 8). They were having a great time rough housing and giggling. Their 7 year old sister sat cowering on a chair about 3 feet away holding her doll in a blanket. When I asked her why she didn't join in on the fun, she hid her eyes and said, "oh, no, I can't do THAT." This is an interesting question and I am curious how men deal with the issue of fear and intimidation but I think it's dangerous to assert that there are 'lots of women's' classes and no men's classes. Men have had their own classes for centuries. We've (women) got a lot of catching up to do. Respectfully, Laura lkamiens@ptd.net << Why the differentiation? I have always taught/treated woman equally, if not harder, than men. They need to hold up their own regardless of sex. If that means taking on a larger man, such is life. As the ad goes, just do it. ------------------------------ From: "Pfeifer, Steven" Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:05:36 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #410 >> From: "Laura Kamienski" >> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:49:27 -0400 >> Subject: the_dojang: re: male self defense classes >> >> The point is that men have never been discriminated >> against, as a group, >> based on their sex. I agree there are some timid and >> less aggressive men in >> the world. Some of these men might find the macho >> black belt image a bit >> intimidating, but in general, they don't need to worry >> about rape or sexual >> assault, sexual harassment on the street, or the >> workplace or at home. >> Furthermore, men are not presented with images of >> helpless inefficacy to >> aspire to. I think that, unlike women, even the most >> timid male has a whole >> host of assertive and strong role models to choose >> from. Women have only >> recently entered this arena. Boys are taught to fight >> early on. Laura: I have to respectfully disagree with you. In effect, what you've said is that it's a man's own fault if he's not assertive or aggressive or macho (pick one), since it's only a matter of choosing the right role model and just doing it, to steal a phrase from Nike. This doesn't address the original problem, which is how can the needs of men who aren't assertive be addressed in sparring. Your casual dismissal of what may be a real problem (or may not, since no one has cited any numbers) does a disservice to them. And I don't even want to venture into the discrimination/reverse discrimination thing. What's wrong with treating men and women the same with respect to having "single-sex" sparring nights. One possible advantage would be that maybe some men just don't feel comfortable sparring against women. After all, those role models we have plenty of also taught us to "never hit girls". As an aside, this sometimes (I don't remember the numbers, they may be small, I don't know) is a factor in domestic abuse cases where the woman abuses the man - the man accepts it because he's supposed to be the strong silent cowboy-type who protects the little woman and her honor. Sorry to get off on a tangent there, but the bottom line is that there's timid males and timid females, just like there's assertive males and assertive females, etc., etc. All of these should be treated the same without regard to their gender. To dismiss one and not the other because of discrimination, role models or whatever, isn't the way we should operate. Steve ------------------------------ From: Ken Ashworth Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:57:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Billy Bully Bag >From: "Jamaica Power" >Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 09:28:52 CDT >Subject: the_dojang: The Billy Bully Bag >So what are your opinions on the Billy Bully Bag for kids for $179.95 from >Century? And I'm not just talking about price, either!!!! Have to say it >doesn't sit right with me but I sure would like to hear from other >instructors that teach kids and some of the parents on the pros and cons. >Right now I personally don't have any pros, but I remain open.. We just got one. My first thought was he should be called Bobby. I assumed he was supposed to be 'little BOB'. Secondly, I thought, "Why did they make him green?" The kids haven't taken to much notice of him. Before class I see a couple the 10-12 years olds seeing if they can kick up to his head. I guess it gives them some confidence for sparring Ken ------------------------------ From: dbuehrer@denver.carl.org Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:58:57 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: male self defense classes \ From: "Laura Kamienski" \ \ <> \ \ The point is that men have never been discriminated against, as a group, \ based on their sex. Never say "never" ;) \ Furthermore, men are not presented with images of helpless inefficacy to \ aspire to. I think that, unlike women, even the most timid male has a whole \ host of assertive and strong role models to choose from. Not to detract from the descrimination against women (which is a problem that definitely needs to be fixed), but those strong assertive role models are the source of a lot of frustration. Only a small percentage of men are truely strong and assertive. Many men present themselves as strong and assertive, or create the illusion (look at me, I drive a Jaguar ;), or feel that being male means being aggresive and controlling. And then there's the vast majority who are frustrated in some form or another because they aren't the model male image. The timid male has a whole host of role models presented to him that he can't possibly emulate. It may be satisfying to know that we've created many Catch 22's for ourselves :-\ \ This is an interesting question and I am curious how men deal with the issue \ of fear I try not to let it control me. Other times (like when I rode the Mind Erasure roller coaster this summer) I just let it go and scream like a banshee :) \ and intimidation Depends. Sometimes non-physical confrontation is an option. Other times its just best to get up and walk away. I think an advantage that men have is that we're inherantly aggressive, IMHO, and have experienced confrontation enough times (with other boys/men) that we can better gauge a situation, determine the level and type of danger, and figure out a course of action quicker. What I notice often times with low belt female MAs is that they overestimate or underestimate the danger to themselves and don't know what options they have. And it's because, IMHO, they just don't have the experience. The mid- and high-belt females are far more comfortable (my 2nd Dan sister can spar with the best of them, and has no reservations about using a technique, or being subjected to a technique, during practicals :) \ but I think it's dangerous to assert that there are \ 'lots of women's' classes and no men's classes. Men have had their own \ classes for centuries. We've (women) got a lot of catching up to do. Agreed. However, please be careful not to create some of the same traps we've created for ourselves over the centuries (it's better to be the best, or better than everyone else). Also, please don't judge yourselves by our standards (and don't let us judge you by our standards :) In other words, don't try to move into our world, but make a new world for yourselves (and maybe invite us to join you :) \ Respectfully, \ Laura Respectfully, - -David Buehrer - -- Supervisor, Database Preparation The UnCover Company mailto:dbuehrer@denver.carl.org - -- - -- "Take the time to laugh, it's the music of the soul." ------------------------------ From: cuan.duncan@za.pwcglobal.com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:14:58 +0200 Subject: the_dojang:Re: Indomitable Spirit >Calligraphy for all the 5 tenets are on page 14 of the 15 volume encyclopedia >of Choi. I don't know which one is Baekjul Boologool, but it should be in >there... >Sincerely, >Anders T. B. Yep - I know. In a way, that's what started me on this eight years ago. Actually, if someone could tell me which characters are for "Baekjul Boolgool" (also if the calligraphy illustrated is Korean - excuse the ignorance), my search would be over ......... Cuan - ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. ------------------------------ From: TKDKurt@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 14:04:27 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Long Term Contracts In a message dated 8/20/99 10:40:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Brett Erwin writes: << Allowed??? You make it seem like its the school owners fault. If your program is worth it, and you (the instructor) are worth it, and the customers are willing to pay it, then so be it. It's **BUSINESS**. >> With all due respect, Brett, it IS the school owner's fault. No new student knows when he starts if he is going to like it or not, nor does the instructor or owner. Martial arts training is not for everyone. I don't care how good the instructor is, some students are going to quit before black belt (statistically, I understand, about 90%). Signing someone up for a 3 year black belt program when they may not stick it out past green belt (where, in my experience, there is a large attrition) is abusive in my opinion. What do you do if they want to quit before the three years? Keep charging them? Take them to court? Let them forfeit prepaid tuition? That may be business, but it's bad business. Word of mouth of such practices can kill a school. As always, this is just IMHO, Kurt ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:51:18 CDT Subject: the_dojang: So, what happened to the m.a. men's group? Going back quite a few months, some of the good men on this forum were contemplating and attempting to form a m.a. men's support group in their dojangs or community. Did anything positive ever happen with the thought? JP _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Michelle Fox Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:25:57 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #409 Stan, Good thing you didn't get out of your car. Who knows what might have happened. The hardest thing to do is walk "drive" (in your case) away. I had a couple of incidences where my adrenalin was at it's highest. Two separate incidences and I walked away. I grew up in a town where fighting is the norm. I was used to fighting, all the time. And I'm Female! That was the HARDEST thing I ever had to do. I just kept telling myself, "It takes a stronger person to walk away." Now, that I look at it, I'm glad I did what I did. I do know that if I had to fight, I would've. You are so right when you say there are some pretty wacky people out there in the world. Take care! Michelle >From: Stan Lim >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:01:40 -0700 >Subject: the_dojang: Driving home tonight... > >Friends and fellow martial artists, lend me your ears (or eyes, actually). >I just had an alarming experience on my way from home today and wanted >to reflect/vent/share. > >I was driving along Moorpark Ave in San Jose at 7:30 pm and I saw a >white car approaching from a side street on my right. I don't know if >the driver saw me, but he cut right out onto Moorpark and I had to step >on my brakes to slow down considerably or I would have hit him. I >honked in reflex simultaneously. > >The driver of the car slowed down his car, stuck out his left arm, >waved it around and started yelling at me. I wasn't able to hear >exactly what he said as I had my stereo on, but it was clearly not >an apology. I honked again because he was slowing down, and at this >point, he stopped his car right in the middle of the road and >proceeded to get out of his car. > >As they say, when these things happen, it all goes by in a flash. I >recall thinking, "He's looking for a fight!" and I was half-ready to >step out myself. I'm not sure what reflexes kicked in but I took >a quick look in the rear mirror, saw only one car behind me far away >to not be effected, and stepped on the gas. I burned rubber on my >car for the first time as I veered halfway into the oncoming lane >to make my getaway. As I stopped at the lights about 500 feet away, >I saw the driver get back in his car and I thought, "Man, if only >I had my nunchucks :-)" Still, I was concerned that he was going to >rear end me, and I took the right turn into Winchester Blvd as soon >as I could. Fortunately he stopped at the light to go straight, but >I made sure I drove a long ways away because the turn into my home >street was visible where the driver's car was at. Didn't want to >risk him following me home. > >Man, that's the biggest adrenalin rush I've had in a long time. I >wouldn't say I was scared, but it was very unexpected. Now, in >retrospect, I am very glad I avoided the confrontation at the cost >of my tires. And, almost as fast as I wished I had my nunchucks, >I remembered that they are illegal weapons in CA. And too bad I >didn't remember to get his license plates or get a better look at >the driver. It just happened too fast. > >Just remember folks, there are wacky people out there. You never >know when you might run into them. Be careful. > >Thanks for listening :-) > >Stan Lim >WTF-TKD, San Jose, CA ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:43:49 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #410 In a message dated 8/20/99 7:48:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << So what are your opinions on the Billy Bully Bag for kids for $179.95 from Century? And I'm not just talking about price, either!!!! Have to say it doesn't sit right with me but I sure would like to hear from other instructors that teach kids and some of the parents on the pros and cons. Right now I personally don't have any pros, but I remain open.. >> I haven't even bought the BOB one for the adults ... I sure as heck am not going to buy one for the kids. I don't like them. I am not sure why, yet. It just gives me a funny feeling seeing people hitting a dummy like they do over and over and over again. Yes, I do teach them self defense and how to get out of that situation .... but I don't know. Someone will have to do some convincing to me that these things are worthwhile buying. So, convince away................ Illona ------------------------------ From: d g Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:23:26 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #409 > > > Has anybody had experience with a timid new male m.a.? How have you helped > him overcome his hurdles? There are lots of self-defense classes for women > but I don't know of any just for men?? Are there some and I just need to > get up-to-date? > Umm when it comes to shy males. Just treat him like everyone else and keep the chat light. The only shy male I have in my class is a young teen. Just talking to him made his face turn beet red. I keep complimenting him on his progress and as he continued in the class I see the shyness getting less and less and I talk to him more now. I found out at our last testing the boy is quite intelligent. He shocked some of the testing board and me with some of his answers. He will eventionally warm up and get used to you all. Just do not force it. Donna - -- NO!! My cycle doesn't leak! It marks it's territory. ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:03:35 CDT Subject: the_dojang: Disciplining kids outside the classroom Lots of questions which I hope get lots of opinions so please bear with me. This is a topic that has been in my mind for years and I've witnesssed quite a few different situations on this topic, so here goes! If you saw a child that you thought was misbehaving (not necessarily doing something really bad) but goofing around a bit; outside of the classroom, not on a class day, would you discipline them verbally or otherwise? And would you do it even if you suspected the parents were in close range? What do you consider your boundaries as an instructor, or as a higher rank student in class should be? Do you have some alternative actions you would take? Do you have permission from some of the parents to take things a step further? Would it matter if it was at a tournament (a regional or national one) and the student came with a coach and some other adult supervision like an aunt or uncle or brother/sister? I would like some opinions since I have viewed this both as a mom and as a martial artist over the years. Since my son is now of legal age I don't have to think about this as much; but I know quite a few people on the list have little ones in class. I know some of you instruct your own children but how would you feel if a higher rank belt disciplined them without your knowledge? Always, JP _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:44:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #410: men's classes >A male co-student asked "Hey, when are >we going to have men's sparring?" I being the only female student present >replied..."I think we just did!" I am often the only female student btw. IMHO if you are typically the only female student, then your situation is too unique to extrapolate to the generic question of men's and women's classes. If your school was MOL equally divided between men and women and the only classes offered were "mixed" and "women's", then I think the men could have a legitimate gripe. The fees are the same, I assume. I also suspect that the reason there are so many self-defense classes for women, and few or none for men, has a lot more to do with the marketability of such courses by instructors to the general public (for increased income) than it has with any "affirmative" motivation to redress past injustices, real or perceived. On the question of women's sparring classes, I'm confused. I seem to recall that I was taken to task by a number of women (I don't recall if you were among them) on this forum not long ago because I suggested that I spar somewhat differently against a woman than against a man. I'm having difficulty reconciling that position with any imaginable rationale for women's only sparring classes. If time was spent in such classes at the expense of mixed sparring sessions, wouldn't this potentially detract from self-defense capabilities against males, at least to the extent that those capabilites are enhanced by sparring? I also find it hard to believe that the reluctance of a seven year old girl to engage in rough horseplay with her kin has more to do with canalization by an inequitable society than it does with normal preferences in the development of a female child. === Tang Soo! Scott ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V6 #410: long term contracts Brett Erwin wrote: >Oh yeah, it's up to the instructor to keep them from quitting or not >showing >up. If they quit, then I take it as my personal failure. Well, that's exactly the problem I would have with requiring a newcomer to make such a committment. Now, I admit I'm assuming that she was either required or coerced into this, because I don't believe her post addressed that issue. But doesn't such a contract tend to insulate a school from the financial repercussions of what you refer to as "personal failure"? This could easily result in a situation where the only party who can lose from a poor fit between student and instructor/school is the student, and I don't like what that implies about incentives. === Tang Soo! Scott ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #411 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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