From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #429 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 30 Aug 1999 Vol 06 : Num 429 In this issue: Re: the_dojang: Knife form, TSD? the_dojang: physics the_dojang: Re: Injuries. the_dojang: TSD/Soo bahk the_dojang: Re: tang....soo....bahk the_dojang: Iaido the_dojang: Kuksulwon swords the_dojang: MEANINGS OF SOO BAHK DO AND TANG SOO DO the_dojang: Re: getting hurt in training the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~750 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Knife form, TSD? > "Kuk Sool sword drawing should not be confused with the Japanese system, > iaido. While the Japanese sword is drawn in an inverted position WITH THE > BLADE'S CUTTING EDGE FACING UPWARD [emphasis mine], the Kuk Sool sword is > always drawn with the cutting edge facing down. > "The reason behind the opposite drawing methods is because the Kuk Sool > sword is drawn with the intention of making the first cut a circular upward > slice, rather than the downward straight stroke that characterizes the > first cut of a Japanese draw." > -- page 41, "Drawing and Sheathing": KUK SOOL WON SWORD TECHNIQUES, by In > Hyuk Suh and Jane Hallander, 1991. Does KSW also have a knife/dagger form(s)? Is the above the same in the case of a knife? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: El Bandito Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 01:57:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: the_dojang: physics Friends: =09No intent to flame here, but Force =3D Mass x Acceleration, not Mass x Velocity^2. Force _is_ proportional to M x V^2 in rotational motion, but care must be taken to properly define the system. (Actually, force is the time rate of change of momentum, but the mass of an isolated system during the course of a technique does not change so the term with the derivative (sp?) of mass with respect to time is zero and all that's left is a term with mass times acceleration.) Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity with respect to time. =09=09=09=09=09-Keep kickin' =09=09=09=09=09 -G > \ > I don't mystify MA. I can break a board because of physics (Force = =3D > Mass \ X Velocity(Sq)). \ > If my fist is conditioned to the force > applied back at it (Every action \ has an equal and opposite \ > > reaction), I won't get hurt - Assuming I do the technique correctly.=20 > > :) I personally find the physics of MA mystical and spiritually=20 > uplifting. The fact that it's possible to break wood and brick with you > hand (as an extension of your body) seems simple enough on the surface > (as you said, Force =3D Mass X Velocity(sq)). But when I start thinking > of just the physics alone, and all the other laws of physics and the _________________________________________________________________________= ___ Garth C. Robins =B7 6E Portugal St. =B7 Cambridge CB5 8AP =B7 United K= ingdom (+44) (0)1223 525-410 =B7 www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~robins ------------------------------ From: Ernest Hart Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 22:31:07 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Injuries. > From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com > Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:00:48 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #425 > << A friend of mine, that goes to the same school of TDK as I do, is a > semi-red > belt. She is very unhappy with the way the school is being run lately. She > was injured in class not long ago - >> Well, there are two ways of looking at this. You are a client, so you have the option of taking the business elsewhere. You are also a student. Are you learning from this person. I can't think of a word for people that feel that the schools Taekwondo training should revolve around what they want. I'm not implying that this is the message in the statement above, but it does take a step in that direction. Just to save people time, I'm going to agree with Master Silz on this one, with qualifications. Please feel free to skip the rest if you disagree with him. :) > Dear Betty, > I write to you with 24 years of TKD experience, but I'm certain that injuries > a re a normal part of any martial artists training. That is pretty much it; > you can't learn taekwondo without both receiving and inflicting injuries. You cannot "push yourself" or become better without training hard. It's like anything else. The closer you get to the limit, the easier it is to have it blow up. Take motorcycles. (for Donna) :) . If a Harley engine is turning 2000 rpm and something lets go, it's probably going to be fixable. If your Sockittome 1500 GSX-R Type B+/A- (more suffix letters = faster, right?) is turning 15,000 rpm and breaks, all heck is going to break loose. The engine might turn into a puddle of slag or explosion, but it's going to be BAD. Same thing with TKD. If you push yourself to the limit, there's risk. Landing wrong on a jump round kick can have bad consequences. Try it with 540 or 720 kicks. Not breaking a board hurts. Not breaking 4 boards... Bye hand. If one stands around and does as little as they can get away with, and it's probably one of the most risk-free forms of exercise. > This is not a happy thought, but it is absolutely truth. The good part is > that through enduring injuries one becomes mentally stronger and more > patient, two qualities a martial artist needs, no? I'm actually quite My injuries have occasionally helped my training by forcing me to concentrate on areas that I otherwise might not. > surprised that your friend had made it nearly to black-belt and has sustained > just this one boo-boo. This is rather exceptional in my experience. > My advice: tell her to: 1. consider herself lucky (to have been hurt only > once) and, 2. "get over it." Good luck. > SESilz I guess that I'm not as harsh. I concur with 1. If you really think that bad training is going on, leave. That is your choice. If you decide to stay, you need to understand that injuries do happen. I just sat on a testing board for black belts. One quote after a board break didn't go: "Break the board now. Hurt later." That shows your self-control and self-discipline. Most of us will never NEED to test our mettle in a situation where we are in pain, but need to keep going anyway. Still, you'll miss the training if you ever need it. Apologies if I seem unduly harsh. I've been up for way too long and got injured tonight at testing. :) E. Hart ------------------------------ From: Andrew Pratt Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:16:04 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: TSD/Soo bahk Dear Cliff, no, there are no books under soo bahk do (at least not last time I looked which as about a month ago) either. TSD/SooBahk do are almost unknown here due to the overwhelming push for TKD during the 1970s. There are a few schools, as I said, there is one near my office, and if I want to get a book, or learn the art, then that would be the place to go, not a mainstream bookshop. Soo Bahk Do has been trying to raise its profile here over the last couple of years but I don't know how successful it has been. Yours, Andrew >>From: "Vaught, Clifford (CLF N6Y2K8)" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:31:21 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: BOOKS IN KOREA ON TSD I can't say conclusively why Andrew Pratt was unable to find Tang Soo Do books in Korea, except perhaps he might try looking under Soo Bahk Do. Grandmaster Hwang Kee renamed his style Soo Bahk Do in 1957. Only recently did the U.S. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation change the name to the U.S. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation. Soo Bahk! Cliff Vaught << The name change was to make the martial art sound more Korean, and less Japanese which (presumably) most people at the time recognised the art as being. The name 'Tang Su Do' is the Korean pronunciation of one way of writing Karate with Chinese characters. When written this way, TSD/Karate means 'way of the Chinese (circa the Tang period) hand.' One must presume that the Karate connection was kept when the art was taught abroad because it was presumed that the foreigner would be familiar with Karate and be more ready to practise the Korean variation. Of course, Japanese, Korean and Chinese people could read the characters and see the connection. Certainly, older Koreans were familiar with the term and, perhaps, recognize it as the art they had learned in Korea. At that time, the word TKD had not been invented so to associate one's art with Karate was a good 'sales' ploy. Now that TKD has become popular and people know there are Korean martial arts, the Karate association is no longer needed so much. Hence(?) the name change. Incidentally, I go down to the Han'gang at the weekends in the morning to practise. I recently met an old man, perhaps 50-60, who was doing some exercises, and though not perfect, looked as though he had learned a martial art. I asked him what he had learned. Guessing at his age I did not ask, 'TKD?' but rather, 'Kongsudo' (the other ('empty hand') way of writing karate in Chinese characters). To my pleasant surprise he replied in the affirmative. When I see him next, maybe I will ask him some more about his training. Yours, Andrew ------------------------------ From: Andrew Pratt Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:25:38 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Re: tang....soo....bahk Dear Melinda, Hopefully I have answered your question re: TSD. As to Soo Bahk, that gives me a chance to plug my site. I give the Chinese characters, and I think, the meaning of Soo Bahk at the following url. It is, though, a large file (70K) and not principally about Soo Bahk. I believe the reference is near the beginning though. If you have any further questions, plse do ask. The url is: http://members.aol.com/torm1358/dissert.htm Yours, Andrew >>From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:13:24 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: tang....soo....bahk this is pure idle curiousity......what are the meanings of "tang soo" and "soo bahk"? thanks :) melinda << ------------------------------ From: Michael Joshua Vagi Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 04:32:26 +1000 Subject: the_dojang: Iaido > Dear Steve, I have studied Iaido for a few years and know a few basic things but the general idea of Iaido is to draw the sword and kill the opponent without a lenghthy battle with the swords. You are right about Iaido starting with the sword starting in a upwards position But Iaido has many more then the one draw they also have draws starting with the edge facing down (earth to heaven) used for Kiri age (upwards cut) they also have a draw where the edge of the sword faces out to the side for (earth to earth) used for a killing strike across the stomach, eyes, throat. And also the draw you were referring to (heaven to earth) to cut kesa geri (sash cut) I hope this is a little bit of Information is useful about this beautiful art. Michael Vagi Black Scorpion Arnis Newcastle, Australia *Fight if you can but never quit* > > > From: Steven Gilmore > Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:45:02 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Knife form, TSD? > > >1. Start with feet shoulder width apart, hands at side. Knife is at left > >hip, in sheath, edge upwards. > > Sounds Japanese in origin. > > "Kuk Sool sword drawing should not be confused with the Japanese system, > iaido. While the Japanese sword is drawn in an inverted position WITH THE > BLADE'S CUTTING EDGE FACING UPWARD [emphasis mine], the Kuk Sool sword is > always drawn with the cutting edge facing down. > "The reason behind the opposite drawing methods is because the Kuk Sool > sword is drawn with the intention of making the first cut a circular upward > slice, rather than the downward straight stroke that characterizes the > first cut of a Japanese draw." > - -- page 41, "Drawing and Sheathing": KUK SOOL WON SWORD TECHNIQUES, by In > Hyuk Suh and Jane Hallander, 1991. > > Sincerely, > Steven Gilmore > Houston, TX, USA > > ------------------------------ > > End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #428 > ******************************** > > Support the USTU by joining today! > US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 > 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com > ===================================================================== > > To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: > unsubscribe the_dojang-digest > -or- > unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address > in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to > majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. > > Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com > in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' > > Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo > Standard disclaimers apply. ------------------------------ From: Andrew Pratt Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:33:46 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Kuksulwon swords Dear Steven, I'm not sure too much should be made of how the weapon is held. I have been taught to have the blade facing up, downwards and horizontal in both Japanese (Aikido and a tiny-winy bit of Iaido) and Korean (Kyong Dang and a tiny-winy bit of Haedong Kumdo). As the Kuksulwon manual notes, it depends on the cut you intend to make rather than belonging to a style (except IMHO an upwards draw would seem to be defensive because unless one had a very strong wrist, it would be very hard to cut through a body with a upwards cut). In any case, I thought Kuksulwon was supposed to use straight double-edged swords? The description reads as if the writer is talking about a single-blade (Japanese style?) sword. If a straight, double-edged weapon is used it is irrelevant which 'side' is up... Yours, Andrew >>From: Steven Gilmore Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:45:02 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Knife form, TSD? >1. Start with feet shoulder width apart, hands at side. Knife is at left >hip, in sheath, edge upwards. Sounds Japanese in origin. "Kuk Sool sword drawing should not be confused with the Japanese system, iaido. While the Japanese sword is drawn in an inverted position WITH THE BLADE'S CUTTING EDGE FACING UPWARD [emphasis mine], the Kuk Sool sword is always drawn with the cutting edge facing down. "The reason behind the opposite drawing methods is because the Kuk Sool sword is drawn with the intention of making the first cut a circular upward slice, rather than the downward straight stroke that characterizes the first cut of a Japanese draw." - - -- page 41, "Drawing and Sheathing": KUK SOOL WON SWORD TECHNIQUES, by In Hyuk Suh and Jane Hallander, 1991. Sincerely, Steven Gilmore Houston, TX, USA<< ------------------------------ From: "Vaught, Clifford (CLF N6Y2K8)" Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 08:15:47 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: MEANINGS OF SOO BAHK DO AND TANG SOO DO Melinda, Tang Soo Do translates to "way of the Chinese hand" with Soo meaning "hand" and Tang coming from the Tang dynasty. Some have also translated it as "way of the knife hand". Soo Bahk Do translates to "hand strike way". They are not different styles as much as an evolution of organizations. Soo Bahk Do was the name Grandmaster Hwang Kee gave his organization in Seoul in the '50's and publicly registered it in 1960 or thereabouts (my history book is not beside me so I apologize for the aproximations). The art came to the U.S. as Tang Soo Do, most notably by Chuck Norris, however a great many American servicemen who were stationed in Korea learned the art and brought it back with them. Grandmaster Hwang Kee formed the Moo Duk Kwan (school of martial virtue) which differentiates the style from other "flavors" of Tang Soo Do. I would suggest obtaining Grandmaster Hwang Kee's History of the Moo Duk Kwan from the Federation, (888) Soo - Bahk. There is good coverage of the different Kwans (schools) that existed in Korea before and after the Korean War and the primary figures ascribed to each. Hope that helps. Cliff Vaught ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:30:51 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: getting hurt in training In a message dated 8/29/99 7:46:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << IYHO are broken bones the norm in training? Lorraine >> i never got a broken bone and i sparred regularly....hard out....with hogu/pads. also broke boards. the worst thing was sore/bruised feet from incorrectly held kicking pads. occasionally, there would be a jammed toe (other students) from practising walking stance on those darned puzzle mats (hitting a badly connected seam). but that was about it. the focus was always on control. "yes, i can see your foot an inch from my face....ok....we'll say you coulda nailed me ;)". melinda ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 06:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #429 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.