From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #435 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 1 Sept 1999 Vol 06 : Num 435 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Injuries in MA/Stan Lim/Ray Terry the_dojang: re : Chon-Ji Pattern Set the_dojang: TKD vs. other MA styles the_dojang: Notes on Soo Bahk the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #434 Re: the_dojang: TKD vs. other MA styles Re: the_dojang: Notes on Soo Bahk the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~750 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stan Lim Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:55:40 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Injuries in MA/Stan Lim/Ray Terry Gee, not the kind of attention I'd like to draw to myself... :-) >From: "Lasich, Mark D." > >Ray, you are correct. I guess I should have qualified that these are >"in-school" restrictions. Actions outside the dojang are undertaken with the >responsibility of the consequences of those actions! Suffice it to say that >having an instructor present in the dojang doesn't solve *everything* either >From: "Alexander, Stephen (Nexfor)" > >Yes Ray, I agree, but I think what Mark was saying is that while in a club >atmosphere, which is where Stan received at least two of his injuries, there >seemed to be a lack of controls. Perhaps some clarification is on order. Let me describe the circumstances leading to my injuries, and then you can decide what went wrong: 11-stitches on right foot. This came from doing a side kick, chest high into 2 x 3/4" clay roofing tiles. I had two holders. I kicked through the tiles and broke them cleanly, but I *think* the holders were holding on the tiles too tightly because they sandwiched my foot with the broken tiles. The sharp broken edge of the tile cut my foot. I don't know if having an instructor there would have made much of a difference in preventing the cut. This wasn't the first time kicking tiles for me. I had successfully broken tiles with no injuries using the back-spinning kick, and sidekick on a single tile. ** Lessons learned: 1) Don't kick so high into a target. Foot has tendency to drop down after kick, which contributed to my cut. Waist level might be safer. 2) Holders are very important. After tiles or boards break, holders should ideally keep broken pieces separated and away from person breaking, i.e. sandwiching their foot with broken tiles is no good. 3) Tiles are more dangerous to break than boards. Use more caution. Broken arm. I was doing light/play sparring with a senior belt. We were on a smooth concrete surface, which was where we normally trained and sparred. I did a left roundhouse. He grabbed my leg (since I wasn't kicking with much force or speed). I jumped on my right leg to do a right roundhouse *warning* DO NOT try this on a hard surface. Instead of legging left leg go to block, my partner pulled my left leg up. Both legs are in the air, so I was falling head first onto the concrete. I tried to break my fall with my hands, but as I landed on my left side, my left hand took all the impact. Loud crunch. No pain at first, but felt "funny". Got up, then realized that I had never seen my left arm bent that way. ** Lessons learned: 1) Be aware of surroundings. Be extra careful when training on hard surfaces. 2) Watch out for the safety of your training/sparring partner as well. Don't do something that may endanger them. 3) Stick to the techniques you were taught. (i.e. grabbing, holding and then pulling on my leg is not a legal TKD or Karate move, normally) What I don't want people to think is that my instructors were negligent. They were not. Okay, maybe we all have had enough about my previous injuries. Kamsahamnida. Stan Lim WTF-TKD, San Jose, CA ------------------------------ From: BK4Leg@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:47:08 EDT Subject: the_dojang: re : Chon-Ji Pattern Set Mo Smith inquired, >Does anybody know of any good references, either >on-line or in a book, for the Chon-ji forms set? I'm >really looking for something that has good thumbnail >views of the forms for a quick reference. Ohara Publications used to have a series by Jhoon Rhee on the hyung of TKD, which had Chon-Ji as the first book. I have no idea if this is still in print. I have Chung-Gun and Toi-gye; pictures were very useful . Bernie ------------------------------ From: "Ric V. Brown" Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:53:48 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: TKD vs. other MA styles my son is taking tae kwon do lesson and is currently a green belt Somebody at work with a MA background from the military was saying that TKD is fine for junior olympics, etc but won't help much in a street fight...especially if the fight turns into a grappling match on the ground. Any comments? suggestions? ------------------------------ From: Andrew Pratt Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:25:41 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Notes on Soo Bahk Dear all those interested, I couldn't remember the precise translation of Subak and was intrigued by Mr McHenry's reference to the Muye Tobo T'ongji, so I went home last night and looked up both items. I can not give the Chinese characters mentioned below via email, but they can be found at the following url: http://members.aol.com/torm1358/dissert.htm >>From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:14:56 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Tang Soo/Soo Bahk "Soo Bahk" translates to "hand strike" (I'm pretty sure). This was the ancient name used for Korean martial arts. << Subak first appears around mid-Koryo (12th century), which is normally considered middle-Korean, rather than 'ancient' Korea. The term seems to have died out not to far into the life of the following (ChosOn) state. The first problem we have with the word Subak is that it is written not with one pair of Chinese characters, but two. I will go into the possible reasons for this a little later. I will begin with describing the meaning of the characters. For both words, the left hand character represents the hand (can you see the fingers?). The second character in the left hand pair means, (this is from 'Mathews' a standard Chinese character dictionary) 'to strike with the hand, to pat, to clap.' The second character in the right hand pair means 'to strike with the fist, to box.' Both characters, therefore, have a definite martial meaning. (I hope all that made sense) Note that the emphasis is on fighting with the hands. Does this mean that legs were not used? The few translations I have seen of descriptions of Subak also tend to mention the hands and not kicking. This is, perhaps, not unexpected if the art was for military purposes. But why two sets of characters? I have thought of three possible reasons (there may be others) 1. There was an official change in designation for some unknown reason 2. The two sets of characters refer to different martial arts 3. The writer did not know the correct character to use and just picked one that seemed most suitable. At some point in the distant future, I will trace all the references to subak I can find and collate them by date to see if the characters are used randomly or whether there is a change after a specific date. Finally, note that there is no 'do.' The use of 'do' in the names of martial arts is, as far as I am aware, a 20th century innovation by the Japanese. The 'do' is not found in historical descriptions of Korean (and Japanese and Chinese?) martial arts. Also since the term Subak is associated with the military, which was mostly conscription based, it is unlikely that it would have contained any sense of personal development. >> As soon as GM Hwang Kee found this out from reading the Moo Yi Dobo Tong Ji, he renamed his art to Soo Bahk Do and incorporated under that name in the late 1950's. << I am not going to claim to be able to read Chinese fluently. Normally, I have to sit down with the aforementioned dictionary and spend several hours chasing obscure Chinese characters. When I looked in the Muye Tobo T'ongji I only looked at the section concerning empty-handed techniques. There may be references in other sections but time commitments currently mean that I am not getting much translation done and it may take a year or two to translate the whole thing. I did indeed find a reference to Subak in the section on empty-hand techniques. However, I could not recognize the characters surrounding 'Subak' and so can not say what the sentence means. (It was 1am in the morning so I didn't want to sit down and investigate fully. If there is interest, I will have a go though...) However, judging from the way the book is organised, 'subak' was mentioned in a historical context. For each weapon there is a historical discussion of that weapon, and then a preamble to the technique which is illustrated. Things become interesting (and messy) when one reads the preamble. The preamble makes it clear that is going to be difficult to say that the empty-hand techniques described in the Muye Tobo T'ongji are subak (or TKD, or Hapkido, or Hwarangdo, etc. - you no the pictures I mean, you normally see them in most Korean martial arts manuals along with an assertion that this is proof that said martial art is a traditional Korean martial art). I suspect that most of you, when you have heard of the Muye Tobo T'ongji have assumed that it is a stand alone martial arts manual detailing Korean martial arts. Unfortunately, this is not true. The Muye Tobo T'ongji has a history. It is based on two previous manuals (maybe more) within Korean, but the source of many of the techniques are from China. The Muye Tobo T'ongji freely mentions this, it is modern users (and abusers) of the manual who have neglected to mention this. The Muye Tobo T'ongji, as its writers proudly assert, mainly draws on the Ming era military manuals Jixiao Xinshu (or Chi-hsiao hsin-shu), by Ch'i Chi-jiang and the Wepei-Chih, by Mao Yuan-yi (by another form of romanisation this can be written as the Wubeiji, but is not the book that McCarthy translated). I have photocopied much of the Jixiao Xinshu, and have seen, but been unable to copy, the Wepei-Chih. The techniques that we have so far been referring as Subak are actually termed 'Kwonbop,' which loosely translated would mean 'fist method' (Here the Chinese seem to be using 'bop' (method) in a Western fashion and is approximate to Jitsu in Japanese and 'Sul' in Korean). The connection with the Chinese books is that for many (>70%?) of the pictures and explanations are EXACTLY the same. In some cases the text is different, in others the picture is different, but there is a close association between the Muye Tobo T'ongji and the earlier Chinese manuals. Does this mean that the Muye Tobo T'ongji is just a reproduction of the Chinese manuals? Are the illustrated techniques Chinese rather than Korean? Possibly, but the exciting thing is that the pictures are often in a different order, and as I have said there differences that suggest the Koreans had changed the Chinese pattern/retained earlier Korean techniques. If you continue to plow through my dissertation, there is a discussion of how the Chinese manuals arrived in Korea and why the Koreans wanted them. Finally, Kwonbop (and the other techniques in the Muye Tobo T'ongji), as I understand the manual to read, are given as single long patterns. However, I have noted that several 'traditional' Korean martial arts claim reference to the Muye Tobo T'ongji and offer many long patterns derived from the techniques described in the Muye Tobo T'ongji. I will leave you to ponder the meaning of this apparant contradiction... Yours, Andrew ------------------------------ From: d g Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 04:07:17 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #434 From: "Jim Nakashima" Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:16:14 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: re: not sure what to do > When he talked to me about this the thing he mentioned most was how I walk > with my head up, back straight, and chest out. He says this is because of > my ego. That may be true but I also have that sort of body type, where I > work out and have developed my chest somewhat, not huge but somewhat. As > well, when I was young I took gymnastics for a number of years where that > kind of posture and stance is required and beaten into our minds. He wants > me to walk more with my head down, shoulders slouched forward in a very > humble position. I understand what he is saying but I'm not totally okay > with that it. > I am not okay with that either. There is nothing wrong with holding your head up, chest out shoulders up. Just do not feel so bad about losing. This is where u show the humility. Shake the winners hand and be happy for him. He worked just as hard as you and deserved it. Remember the day and work on improving your defense for the next time. Everytime u lose they have shown u a weak spot in your defense. So, in a way, you've won. You found something more u need to work on. Donna - -- NO!! My cycle doesn't leak! It marks it's territory. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 07:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: TKD vs. other MA styles > my son is taking tae kwon do lesson and is currently a green belt > Somebody at work with a MA background from the military was saying that TKD > is fine for junior olympics, etc but won't help much in a street > fight...especially if the fight turns into a grappling match on the ground. > Any comments? suggestions? If your primary interest is in learning to fight/defend then also learn ground work. Many/most kids are in martial arts for self-improvement, but if they are there to learn to fight then there are several ranges that one should learn, as well as how to transition from one to another. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 07:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Notes on Soo Bahk > I couldn't remember the precise translation of Subak and was intrigued > by Mr McHenry's reference to the Muye Tobo T'ongji, so I went home last > night and looked up both items. > > I can not give the Chinese characters mentioned below via email, but > they can be found at the following url: > > http://members.aol.com/torm1358/dissert.htm [snip] Great info Andrew. Thanks for the post! Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 07:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #435 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.