From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #464 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 18 Sept 1999 Vol 06 : Num 464 In this issue: the_dojang: boxing the_dojang: Boxing as a Martial Art the_dojang: Re: paladin the_dojang: History Re: the_dojang: History the_dojang: Reminder ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~750 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "kadin goldberg" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 17:02:26 MDT Subject: the_dojang: boxing / with all their arrogance and disrespect for / their opponent (verbally) and say that they have risen to a new / level / mentally and spiritually? Now don't get me wrong here i do agree with everything except for this the "disrespect" After every fight they say nice fight, hug um alot of the time, when they interview boxers alot of the time they say the they are very good at the sport and so on. I do however see what you mean by being spiritual. Now Tae Kwon Do I do not believe you can even doubt that it isnt a Martial Art. It most definitly is. Kadin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "William Upton-Knittle" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 17:24:29 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Boxing as a Martial Art I would disagree with any assertion that boxing should be considered a martial art. There is a mental aspect to the martial arts that I believe is absent in boxing. Martial arts, if you take the word "martial", which can be translated "stop sword" or "stop conflict", has peace as its goal. That's why I have difficulty with Kick-boxing, boxing, and even aspects of Tae Kwon Do being classified as a martial ART. I think you may be confusing two different things. When I was in college one of my professors had been a boxer and a long-time referee. I would always kind of sniff my nose at boxing and said it had no real "art" about it like the martial arts I had been studying since 1950 did. He never argued with me, but silently I could tell he thought I didn't know what I was talking about. Couple of years later I was news director at a TV station here in Los Angeles and Cassius Clay (as he is still referred to in boxing circles) had just become a Muslim, taken the name Muhammed Ali, and refused to be drafted into the military. He was at the top of his form, but had many threats against him. One night he came to the station to be interviewed. Now I never followed boxing, but I had watched the championship match in which it appeared he used a reverse front punch to finish his opponent.....many experts at the time said such a punch couldn't possibly had done that much damage. Being a martial artist - and at that time being Nishiyama Hidetaka's demo opponent - I was very interested in finding out how much Mr. Ali knew about MA. After the interview he was being escorted by 8 bodyguards back to his car in the parking lot (these were the Fruit of Islam who several years before had asked some of us to teach them for big bucks...we refused because we felt they didn't have the correct mindset) and I tried to approach him. They blocked my way until I mentioned I was the news director....and Ali LOVED attention. He stopped and I asked him about that punch. He started demonstrating several punches and finally began a series of left jabs straight to my face (obviously wanted to show up the martial arts expert).....since he was taller and his arms much longer than mine, all I could do was twist to the side and punch him straight to his face....in this way his arm had to curve outside mine, and while he was less than 1/2 inch from my face, I was touching his nose. Finally, I dropped to a squat and hit straight to his gonads, not making contact of course. His bodyguards started moving in and he stopped them and patted me on the shoulder and said "that's why I never mess with those karate guys...they don't play by the rules." My point is this.....I had an unstoppable punch and block....I had sparred with all the top people of the day (we were a small group at that time and anyone who was anyone knew each other in the MA...and there still weren't too many caucasians into it yet). However, NO martial artist ever threw such fast and such powerful punches at me....NO ONE. And he was wearing a suit and not warmed up. I called my professor the next day and told him the story and apologized for saying boxers really don't have anything "scientific" about them.....for indeed this one did. So I come down on the side of boxing being very much a martial art. I studied it after that encounter to learn the strategies, etc. When you are criticizing these certain martial practices as not being ART, I think you are expressing the fact you are bothered that these are "fighting" activities. This bothered me way back when, as well. But the martial arts led me to study zen and finally to be ordained in all traditions of Buddhism. Technically, I am a Shaolin monk.....but that's another story about how people misunderstand the history of that group of temples. The warriors of their day came to realize that ch'an or zen could help them in their fighting......if you have an absolutely clear mind when facing an opponent (NO thoughts or plans or designs....just a black mind) you can literally see what he/she is doing before you could if your mind were full of thoughts. So yes, zen practice became an oxymoron within the Japanese martial arts at that time and later spread to other countries. They really don't belong together, but the one greatly advances the abilities of the other. In fact, it makes these practices TRULY arts rather than just ways of fighting. The main thing, however, is to stick to the basics....for all the secrets are right in the basics....and I haven't seen much in the ways of basics since the 60s. All best, b ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:34:49 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: paladin alain, could you please repost the address for paladin? welcome back :) melinda ------------------------------ From: Michael Joshua Vagi Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 02:56:34 +1000 Subject: the_dojang: History Kumusta ka fellow martial artists, Can anyone give me some URL's to good sites about the history of Hapkido, Hwarrang do & Korea (feudal times) I have read a few interesting things about Hakido and hwarrang do but I want to cross reference them to see if they are right. Paalam Michael Vagi Black Scorpion Arnis Newcastle, Australia *Fight if you can but never quit* ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: History > Can anyone give me some URL's to good sites about the history of Hapkido, Hwarrang > do & Korea (feudal times) I have read a few interesting things about Hakido and > hwarrang do but I want to cross reference them to see if they are right. One place is http://www.martialartsresource.com Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Reminder Reminder... The list will be down from 9/19 to 9/28. Ray Terry rterry@best.com ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #464 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.