From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #465 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 18 Sept 1999 Vol 06 : Num 465 In this issue: the_dojang: Paladin Press the_dojang: Martial Nonsense the_dojang: Martial Re: the_dojang: Martial the_dojang: Hapkido in New Zealand ? Re: the_dojang: Hapkido in New Zealand ? the_dojang: list down ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~750 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 11:34:42 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Paladin Press In a message dated 99-09-18 10:36:05 EDT, you write: << alain, could you please repost the address for paladin? welcome back :) >> Paladin Press P.O. Box 1307 Boulder CO 80306 U.S.A. (303) 443-7250 Retail orders - 1-800-466-6868, or 1-800-392-2400 or visit their web site: www.paladin-press.com ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:48:31 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Martial Nonsense It's quite funny how so many people seem to try and define the term Martial Art. Some try to define it as all asian war arts. Some try to define it as peace-loving and non-brutal self defense styles. This gives the possibility of including non-asian styles as well, but also excludes at least 50% of all asian styles that are normally called MA. Some try to define it as a fighting art or self defense art with a spiritual side. In practice, this means to include some level of buddhism or shintoism in the style. To me, its clear that excellence in MA is not related to certain religious beliefs or practices. The words "Martial Art" seem to mean so much to so many people that it is becoming increasingly hard to apply the words in a meaningful and consistent manner. By merely using the term MA, you create more confusion, and that is not what terms are about. Humans invent and agree on a common set of terms in order to simplify the world. Terms are common ground - when they stop being that, they should be abandoned. Some have moved to the term Martial Sport, but this is also very limiting, since most practitioners are not into MA for the sports. A few have also started using the term Martial Science to approach the problems I have pointed out concerning the words Martial Art and Martial Sport. Anyway: what do you think about abandoning the term Martial Art in favor of the term Martial Science ? Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:55:29 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Martial It is interesting to see what different people believe to be martial, and martial arts. I know that we won't always agree, but here are some of my thoughts and some of the reason I believe so. First, lets look at the word "martial" Someone posted it as haveing a non violent natured meaning of stop sword, or related definition. I'd like to know where that came from. The English word "Martial" is etymologically related to Mars, the Roman god of war, and consequently war, warriors, military pursuits, and soldiers. You can look this up in Websters. Under martialist, the definition is a warrior, or a fighter. (However, I will note that in this same Webters, it says martial arts are the systems of self-defense originating in the Orient, as someone else posted as well) This I believe is just because in our modern society, when we hear the term martial arts, we think of Karate, Judo, Tae Kwon Do, etc.... So in reality, our understanding of what martial arts are, is a little distorted. We are forgetting what "martial" is, and that is WAR. The historian Donn Draeger once wrote that, "if an art was not developed for military application, it's not "martial"" So that is a little about the english word, now let's look at the Japanese term, bujutsu. Bu is translated military or martial, while jutsu can be translated as "method" "art" or "technique" Then, the new or more modern terms that use "do" rather than justsu came about, depicting a "way" In turn, some of combat arts, since that's what war is, combat, and the skills practiced were for one thing, and that was to win on the battlefield, turned more do disciplines with a purpose of more educational or ehtical nature. Now, this is not a bad thing. Gichin Funakoshi said, "The ultimate aim of the art (karate) lies not in victory or defeat, but in the perfection of the character of its participants." This is a lofty ideal, and one I agree with to a degree. I think with the right teacher, many martial arts, regardless of style, can help an individual reach this higher character. But at the same time, what is the martial artist learning? We are learning how to hurt people, plain and simple. It may make a person feel better by saying they are practicing for personal, intellectual or spiritual development (and I think those things can be attained through martial arts, but they can also be attained in many other ways that do not deal with learning how to kill or hurt someone, in fact, if you take a zen approach, any activity you do can reach this same end.) Here is a paragraph from "Living the Martial Way" by Forrest Morgan, "When it comes right down to it, martial arts are about one thing, fighting. And regardless of how much one philosophizes about developing character and walking in peach, if he's a true warrior he began by learning to fight, and he will spend the rest of his life honing his combat skills. That's not to say peace and character development aren't important parts of the Martial Way, but strength and confidence are its foundations, and the warrior must learn to walk without fear. As a warrior, you will strive to live a life of budo, but you should train in the ways of bujutsu. You must always strive to master the arts of personal combat." I pretty much agree with Forrest in that, and that's why I put his quote here. With that, I look at what is martial, and what is for combat. Old writings in Japan on the bujutsu listed different arts of combat including; archery, spearmanship, swordsmanship, horsemanship, fortifications, use of firearms, and military seamanship (which included swimming). (list from Secrets of the Samurai: The Martial Arts of Feudal Japan by RAtti and Westbrook) So if the origins of the arts we now consider martial arts are from the warriors who used these skills to wage war, why do we now consider them something different? In my Hapkido class last night, I taught a basic technique that can potentially severly injure or kill someone. (basic arc hand to the throat that we all know) How does this knowledge and practice help a person become one of better character? I hope to instill on people that I teach that the things we learn are dangerous, and with this knowledge and skill comes a greater responsibility. But the fact remains, I am teaching people to hurt, or possibly kill other human beings, becase that's what combat and the martial arts are. Martial is war, and war is killing. Just like the ancient warriors, I do not limit my martial training to my hapkido classes. I train in anything that is related to combat. While I was in the Army, and the possibility of my being in a war situation was greater, I practiced even more. However, I was practicing with weapons, and all the other skills a modern warrior needs on the battlefield. On a sniper mission, the practice with my M21 and M24 sniper systems was a more practical "martial art" than any hand to hand system. Thus, I classify "martial arts" as any activities, methods, arts for the warrior to win at battle, and I practice a variety of them. If I ever have the unfortunate situation of having to defend myself or family in my home from an armed intruder, you can count that I will not go up against a gun wielding assailant with my bare hands. Even though I have practiced gun disarming techniques, I feel more confident in my firearms training and point shooting methods for actual combat. I feel, like the warriors of old, that weapons training is part of martial arts. Why would a person say that learning the ancient weapons of asia are martial, but modern weapons are not? I like practicing with the nunchaku, and I'm not bad for the amount of time I spend with them, but they are no substitute for a gun in actual combat. As for boxing as a martial art? Well, boxing is a sport, just as many of the "Asian Martial Arts" have been turned into. (Forrest calls these combat sports, to differentiate them from real martial arts, but I don't know if I go with that, since the combat sports as he calls them still have some benefit in real fighting and combat, since we do need a way to train without killing each other, since most of us don't have a war to go out and practice our techniques in) But the fact remains that boxing is a very good method of unarmed combat and self-defense. I already mentioned Ned Beaumont's book, "Championship Streetfighting: Boxing as a Martial Art," but we can also look to Bruce Lee. Lee is still probably the most widely known and liked martial artist of all time. Well, Bruce Lee looked to western boxing and wrestling to enhance his fighting skills. Why? Because they work and are effective. So, if the most known martial artist of all time, included boxing as a martial art, and boxing indeed influenced Bruce's training and JKD, well, then wouldn't boxing be a martial art? What about fencing? Bruce Lee also studied Euopean fencing as a martial art, and it influenced his JKD. Everyone considers Kendo, or the forerunner of that, kenjutsu a martial art, or even the art of drawing the sword, iaido (former Iaijutsu) as a martial art, so if these Japanese ways of swordsmanship are considered martial arts, why not the European fencing? Bruce Lee thought of fencing as a martial art, and so do I. Again, any skill, technique, art, method, etc. that will aid the warrior win in combat can be considered martial. Thus, my definition of martial art includes any and everything for combat. And that is my primary reason to train. While I am no longer in the Army, I still train for realistic self-defense. I am prepared to defend myself and others if the situation arises. Do I get other benefits from martial art study? Yes. Are there other reasons people study various martial arts? Yes. (Friend of mine breaks reasons for studying into four catagories: 1) self-defense, 2) a physical art/discipline, 3) a spiritual path, 4) a sport.) Well, I did not plan to write that much, but I just sort of got going on this Saturday morning. These are just some random thoughts on the topic that I hope will get people to think about things. You don't have to agree with everything I wrote, but maybe it will give some perspectives on things. It is also good for me to think about these things at times, and that's sort of what I have been doing, thinking on the keyboard and rambling on. Maybe I should try and organize these thougths into a more organized article. see you all when the list is back up in a week, Yours in Training, Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Martial > is also good for me to think about these things at times, and that's sort of > what I have been doing, thinking on the keyboard and rambling on. Maybe I > should try and organize these thougths into a more organized article. Humm, seems like you did pretty good already... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Andreas John Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:59:26 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido in New Zealand ? Hello ! I'm looking for a Hapkido Dojang in New Zealand. A friend of mine will be there for a year and doesn't want to stop training. Is there a dojang dictionary for new zealand ? Can anyone mail me Adresses of dojang there ? Cheers, John (john@hapkido.de) P.S. If anyone is looking for a dojang in Germany try to search on www.hapkido.de Message origin: john@systemdesign.net ; http://www.systemdesign.net This message and any statements expressed therein are those of myself and not of System Design or its subsidiary companies. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 14:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Hapkido in New Zealand ? > I'm looking for a Hapkido Dojang in New Zealand. A friend of mine > will be there for a year and doesn't want to stop training. > Is there a dojang dictionary for new zealand ? > Can anyone mail me Adresses of dojang there ? > > Cheers, > John > (john@hapkido.de) > > P.S. If anyone is looking for a dojang in Germany try to > search on www.hapkido.de Check the links available on http://www.martialartsresource.com. Among them is a link to www.dojang.de which shows many dojangs around the world. Also check out the 'Dojang Yellow Pages' link on martialartsresource.com to www.k2nesoft.com/~apreston/Yellow.Pages.html. Plus you may hear from some of our NZ subscribers. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 15:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: list down "See" ya'll again on 9/28. Train hard. Ray Terry rterry@best.com ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #465 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.