From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #531 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 26 Oct 1999 Vol 06 : Num 531 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #529 the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #530 [none] the_dojang: TKD? On the ground? YES! (But I don't suggest it) the_dojang: Re: Ready for Testing the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~775 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dan Myers Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:40:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #529 > > From: "Aaron Harmon" > Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:45:47 -0700 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #528 > > >From: "Van Niel, JJ" > >Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:51:56 -0400 > >Subject: [none] > > > >I was watching one of those extreme fighting videos last night and I was > >wondering why Jui-Jitsu seemed to beat all of the other competitors > >(Kyokushin, Greco-Roman, Kenpo, etc....)? This seems to be the case in > many > >of the fights I have seen. > > > >Regards > >JJ > > I would think it is a matter of tactics. Many martial arts systems do not > have a 'drop the guy and finish him' attitude to their techniques like BJJ > does. Many have a 'pop the guy, back off, and let him think about it while > you plan your escape' attitude. Also, UFC was started by Rorion Gracie in 1993. Now I wouldn't want to argue the merit of BJJ/GJJ. I would admit that GJJ is a very tough art, in its setting, to beat. UFC has been setup to "cater" to the Jiu-Jitsu art. There are some key items to take into consideration when looking at UFC. For instance, I can understand why things such as eye goughes, small joint manipulation, fishhooking, throat strikes and the likes are fouls, but I don't see the headbutt fitting into this category. If you look at UFC bouts, you will see most jiu-jitsu fighters do best, when they get someone in their guard. Once they have applied the gaurd, the headbutt is one of the most devastating counters against them. This was shown in early competition. Also, in my opinion, why it has been outlawed. One of the reason Rorion started UFC was to promote GJJ, you can see why, something so simple and effective would be removed after its effects where proven. Also, the number one item that a jiu-jitsu fighter needs to work his art is time. He needs patience waiting for his oponent to make a mistake or open himself up to a choke, or submission move. Again, UFC is setup for 1 round lasting an extendend length of time. Once someone is in the Guard they will be in the "advantage" of the jiu-jitsu fighter. Anyone could argue that it is the proof that the jiu-jitsu fighter is a better fighter since he can keep someone in his guard. But my opinion is, that if you wish to have a true example of mixed martial arts fighting, you need to let the fight open up to all areas of all fighters skills, (striking/clinch/grappling). UFC starts with striking, but a quick takedown will bring it down to the ground within the first minute or two. I remember a fight between Mark Coleman, and Maurice Smith??? Wrestling - -vs- Kickboxing. I do not recall what caused Maurice to escape the ground. Possibly Mark was tired, or it was overtime. Anyways, by the time they where back on there feet, Mark was so tired from the groundwork he couldn't do anything. He simply stood their as Maurice kicked him, over and over and over again. I think that in the recent events, they are starting to go to periods, allowing the fighters back onto their feet. I feel this is a good thing, since it lets the strikers know that if they can fight through the ground they will be able to get back to their feet, and be able to use their art again. It also tells the jiu-jitsu fighter that he can't just sit and wait for an opportunity to open up for him to apply an arm bar, but rather, he nees to "make it happen" for him. All good things in my opinion - oh yeah, bring back the headbutt too! - -- Dan Myers, KC0FXP System Administrator Fishnet.com http://www.fishnet.com mailto:dmyers@fishnet.com ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:06:52 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #530 > ------------------------------ > > From: Ray Terry > Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 06:19:51 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Re: the_dojang: Belt Colors > > > One anacdote which was told to me when I first started TKD over 20 years > > ago: All belts were White...the harder and more frequent you trained, > the > > dirtier and blacker it became until it was all Black...at which point > the > > harder and more frequently oyu trained...the more thread barren the belt > > became returning to the original White...Completing the Circle. > > I, too, heard this for the first time 25 or more years ago. It is your > standard 'urban legend'. > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com > > The 'white belt getting dirty' story may or may not apocryphal, but isn't it a little ironic to call it an urban legend when another 'truism' is that martial arts were developed in part so that unarmed peasants could defend themselves? :) Kerry ------------------------------ From: "Alexander, Stephen (Nexfor)" Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:46:15 -0400 Subject: [none] Emil Wrote: >>Then again, there are also those students that think they're ready for the grading, who I don't believe will pass. It's happened several times that I've told people not to go, and they still go and fail. This happens a lot at the gup level, but many times when people test for their poom or dan. If only people would listen...<< Let me start by saying.... Different schools are different. And no one better plagiarize that! :) Sorry Ray had to do that... There will always be folks out there who feel that they are better than they are. There is nothing you can do about it except watch them fail and hope that it teaches them something. >>What I would like to see instead of a grading is a system where the instructor just hands out the next belt to the student. I see a lot of people that focus too much on the grading and attendance, and don't really care about how a person performs in class.<< Yep, I agree. Better yet, lets go back to NO colour belts at all!! Just wear a white belt until you are ready to be a Black Belt. Saves everyone the trouble of worrying about their next test and allows them to concentrate more on training. Also removes the confusion of how to line up in class!! ;-> . There are so many people who are focussed on the destination, they don't enjoy the journey. There is a particular BB in my club who tested with my wife and I when we went for BB about a year and a half ago. Well, since then she always has an excuse for not training much, or not training hard. Well, how much you want to bet that when it gets close to time for 2nd Dan testing, you will see her training just for the test. Whereas my wife and I have continued to train 3-4 days a week regardless of the fact we won't be testing for a LONG time. These people IMO are not truly interested in the MA, but in self gratification, the kind that comes from telling people, "hey, I'm a 2nd degree BB now, you better look out".. IMO a BB or any other colour belt is just to hold up your drawers. Deep inside you, I think most people know whether or not they deserve a promotion or not. Steve Alexander Student of the Martial Arts. War never decides who is right, only who is left. ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:31:05 PDT Subject: the_dojang: TKD? On the ground? YES! (But I don't suggest it) Michael Sarles wrote: >I think what one has to remember is the strength of a particular >martial >art. I myself have spent a little time (not enough) fighting >people who >take judo or students that have come into class that were >excellent >wrestlers in school. What I have found is that TKD is not >inferior to >these styles...but if I was too slow getting out of the >way of someone >purposely trying to find a way to get me to the >ground...I went down. Indeed. I remember sparring with a friend of mine who has studied Praying Mantis Kung Fu for years. They grab ALL THE TIME, put a lock on you, and THEN sweep you :( I really learned how to get out of the way! But I also learned that the releasing motions my instructor teaches in class really work! The secret is to wait for an opening while AVOIDING your opponent's attacks. There have also been a few occasions when I have sparred with a friend who trained in judo/ju-jutsu. My opponent's reaction was "I was having a really hard time getting you down." When we did end up on the mat (and I was the one who took him down) I did end up on the receiving end of a choke. But not before I had hit pressure points on his throat and in his armpit. He ended up getting the choke on me from behind but I did manage to get a grip on his... well, let's say "family jewels". I could have been choked out if I hadn't tapped out but then again, he could have been singing falseto and adopting children. It occurs to me that a lot of people would view this as "dirty fighting" (I sure do!). But let's ask ourselves if kicking someone is somehow better (morally) than getting down and dirty on the ground? Remember, kicks (and punches) have an incredible amount of power behind them. If we did connect to an unprotected target say good bye to their ribs (at least). BB's at my instructor's school break STACKS of wood (6+ boards is common). That's a pretty good kick, I'd say. >On the other hand...TKD is the "foot/fist way" ... once you are on >the >ground you still have many techniques that you can use. A lot of >wrestlers that don't have finishing techniques are also quite >useless on >the ground. Yes, a lot of people figure "I'm on the ground. Now how do I do that flying reverse kick from here?" The secret is to pick the right tool for the job. >What are you going to do...pin your opponent into submission? I'd like to see that. Maybe they'll just get tired. >There are plenty of elbow, gouges, punches, etc. that can be used on >the >ground. A simple thumb to the base of the throat tends to get >someone's >attention very quickly. Unfortunatley, a lot of TKD'ers >forget about their >hands once on the ground. Secondly...it's always >good to learn some good >submission / bar (arm bar, leg bar, etc.) >techniques to add to your >arsenal. Arm bars, locks, etc. are some of the most useful techniques I've learned. They allow you to control your opponent with a minimum of pain unless they try to counter. They also set one up for the ever important follow-up technique. I remember reading an interview with Gen. Choi a few years ago (either in "Mudo Dojang" or "Inside Taekwon-Do") and he was asked if TKD was a complete art. His response: an emphatic "YES". HE stated that he designed it - no flames please ;) - to be used anywhere, any time. "Even on the ground?" he was asked. "Yes!" If one looks through ANY of his books there are techniques in chairs, kneeling, and while prone, not just standing. At my school these get introduced at the 2nd dan level, usually. In an issue of "TKD Times" I think from '95 or '96 they showed the general demonstrating techniques from A PRONE POSITION! It's interesting that the interviewer was the founder of Combat TAekwon-Do (Fergusen ?). He seemed genuinely surprised at the General's comments. Maybe people just aren't spending enough time thoroughly exploring their art before taking up another to "round things out". This isn't a slam against cross training - I've done it and probably will again. But just because you haven't been introduced to throws, locks, etc. doesn't mean they don't exist in TKD. Patience, patience, patience. TKD can be used anywhere, even on the ground. But if you let yourself get into a grappling situation in the first place I hope you have the physique of a sumo wrestler. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. In a self-defense situation play to your strengths! Taekwon, Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: CBAUGHN@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:38:33 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ready for Testing Emil Fisk wrote: << What I would like to see instead of a grading is a system where the instructor just hands out the next belt to the student. I see a lot of people that focus too much on the grading and attendance, and don't really care about how a person performs in class. They might be lazy, playful, or whatever, and yet still be serious and do very well at the grading. Should this student be allowed to the next belt level because he performed well for 10 minutes even though he was playing around in class for the past three months? The classtime should be a period of constant evaluation instead, thus making the students work hard and at their best behavior all the time. When the instructor feels they're ready, he simply calls the student in front of the class and congratulates him or her for oustanding performance and attitude, here's your next gup certificate or belt, yadda yadda yadda. >> My son's Shotokan karate instructor felt the same way and started a procedure whereby the student would "test" during regular classes when the instructor felt he/she was ready -- no pressure, no pass/fail kind of thing, just ask the student to perform certain tasks and if they could, the point was noted on their chart. When they had performed everything that was necessary for the next level belt, there was a ceremony at the end of a regular class and the student was presented with the new belt. It's true there was no pressure, everything was very low-key; but the students didn't seem to retain the information or training quite as well as when they'd had a regular test. The most off-putting part, though, was that there was no longer a "test day" where parents and friends could come and watch videotape a student taking his/her test and celebrate having passed. Students started dropping like flies, and had the old ways not been reinstated, I believe a previously thriving school would have gone under. I would note that they never did this with the Black Belt Test, which was always held as a special test with only the parents and friends of the testee being allowed to watch -- no other students allowed except those at Dan level (and if a parent was a student, too bad unless he was already at black belt level). For those who passed, there was also a wonderful "Rite of Passing" celebration during the evening following the test. Everyone looked forward to this milestone (and it was truly worth the work and wait). I guess, even though we say that belts don't matter and tests don't matter, they do...at least in some ways. One of those paradoxes of martial arts. Sally cbaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #531 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.